Stop telling newbies to eat more fat!

(Joyce Garrison) #41

This was excellent read
All you need to know and do is right here
Thanks

(Bunny) #42

We Really Can Make Glucose From Fatty Acids After All! O Textbook, How Thy Biochemistry Hast Deceived Me!

(German Ketonian) #43

Here’s the thing: our body needs glucose, so much so, that it manufactures it from the other two macros protein and, yes this is shocking, also fat! Gluconeogenesis can happen, if you eat 90%+ fat when you overdo it. Basically, the glycerol group gets separated from the fatty acids and is then converted into glucose.

Yet: Based on my results in terms of biomarkers, my perfect macros seem to be a “classic” ketogenic diet around 85-90% fat. My BG and insulin levels are low, and I really can eat to sateity. Even “real foods”, such as meat, eggs and the like trigger my binge cravings and I end up horribly overeating…

So, based on my N=1 science, the fat advice is valid, and I am thankful to have received it when I started out. For me, my goal was to get my binge-eating under control, not to lose weight. So I am careful to state my experience and would like to close by emphasizing, that I agree with @gabe’s post in that we cannot give the “eat more fat” advice as a throw-away! It depends on what your goals are, IMHO. The things we can agree on were outlined very well in @PaulL nicely, I think.

#44

I agree that because we’re all here for different reasons it can be tricky. At weight watchers they all share a goal whereas people go keto for all sorts of different reasons - for me it was blood sugar/hormone control not weight loss. Even people with the same goals will be at different stages.
Then you’ve got those who need to lose weight but have never dieted so may find it relatively easy Vs those who have calorie restricted for decades & thus may have some ‘reverse dieting’ to do. It’s a minefield but it’s a good start!

#45

It’s unreasonable to tell people what not to say on a forum and then tell them what to say. By your standard only you get to speak on behalf of the rest of us. The reader can make their own decision on whether or not they will take the advice, and that’s all it is advice–noobs(myself included) aren’t idiots–it’s a forum not a medical board. Your posts give me anxiety, I’m not sure if you realise it but you come across as a bully.

#46

I agree, when I first started I was petrified of eating that much fat and wasn’t coming close to eating enough, it was very reassuring knowing that there was a forum full of people showing me the science that it was okay to eat more fat.

#47

I completely agree that “more fat” is the wrong message and can lead to weight gain even if carbs are low. In the beginning, you aren’t using fat for fuel. Your body is programmed to store it. Until glycogen is depleted, high fat isn’t going to help with hunger. I think calories matter. But everyone has their own way, and the advice might work for some.

(Ron) #48

Glycogen is depleted in the stored cells in approximately 2 days after you reduce carb intake below 20g.

(Tom Seest) #49

What most newbies need is a shift in focus. I’m not saying that all newbies need a shift in focus, but most newbies focus on weight loss. It can literally take years for many of them to change their focus from focusing on the external appearance, and associated weight loss, and focus on getting or maintaining good health again.

I believe the insatiable desire to lose weight is due to a poor view of how they are perceived as individuals, or their self worth, but I’m no expert.

One we focus on fixing anything that is wrong or unhealthy inside our skin, the results will eventually show up on the outside. But, it may not be a quick fix.

It’s much easier to track math, and numbers, and feel good, because compared to others; we are doing well.

But, the true race is happening on the inside. Are we improving each day? Are we making better choices each day? Are we becoming a better, healthier person? It may not be evident to others, but ultimately, in my view, this is what matters.

(Terence Dean) #52

Bravo @gabe Gabe I was on to Phinney’s comments about reducing dietary fat intake early but I was still getting bombarded with “Eat fat, eat more fat!” I started ignoring that and I’ve been fine since.

People love to quote Phinney when it suits but what about this one that he also wrote, especially the last paragraph:

How do I break a weight loss pleateau on a ketogenic diet?

Quote:

‘When weight loss is a goal, dietary fat intake may lead to weight stability if the amount of calories consumed matches daily energy needs’. Try slowly reducing dietary fat to see if you can do so without increasing hunger. This may be the solution to help you resume weight loss.’

Sounds like counting calories to me and it doesn’t mean eat more fat and you’ll resume weight loss.

(Barbara) #53

I took the 70% fat advice when I first started and lost no weight. I also did Fat Fasts (forcing myself to eat bacon and eggs in quantity) the day before a water fast. Then someone asked me if I didn’t eat so much fat, wouldn’t my body have to supply it? Smacked me in the head! It’s hard to find what is right for you in the beginning. You just need to be willing to continue experimenting with yourself. I starting losing weight regularly when I stopped trying to “manage my macros” and just ate the meats, fats and vegetables that appealed to me. Listening to your body and working with can help YOU the most.

(Edith) #54

I do believe that calories in vs calories out does eventually have to come into play. Once we get our hormones stabilized and our bodies healing I do believe that if we take in more food than we need, whether it’s fat or protein, we won’t lose weight.

I think keto is very effective at first because while our bodies are making the transition to fat burning, we actually do end up eating a lot fewer calories. Once our bodies learn how to utilize fat and ketones it is still possible to over eat.

On the other hand, I find the foods so satisfying, it is harder for me to over eat.

Just recently I’ve noticed a too full feeling after dinner. I think my body is telling me I need to cut back a bit.

(Terence Dean) #55

That’s great for you but in my case I don’t get that feeling at all, I could eat more and more so I personally need to count my calories and also watch my macros because I can blow them out of the water very easily. A steak to me is not a 90g fillet, its a minimum of 500g or its not worth eating or at least that is how I was eating until now. So for me counting calories and watching my macros don’t explode is essential.

(Edith) #56

Yeah, well, I’m a 53 year old, perimenopausal woman. I have a feeling our bodies work very differently. :wink:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #57

This is true wisdom. The irony was not lost on me that I found myself apologizing to a number of people at Ketofest for not being thinner. Of all places where people were sure to understand, and I was still afraid of being judged for being fat! Never mind the fact that my last blood work came back perfect, and I’m no longer pre-diabetic, and I can do all sorts of things with ease that I couldn’t do for many years, and . . . and . . . . :grinning:

(Wendy) #58

I’ve enjoyed reading this thread and agree with much of it. My experience with keto is that it is easy for me not to eat enough or get enough calories as my appetite is so small. I have never counted macros. I tried an app once and hated it.
I found that if I stall, when I add more fat I start to lose again. Though honestly right now I’ve been at around my current weight for almost a month. I look fine. I would like to be a little skinnier but I’m not really overweight by the charts anymore. I’ve lost 55 lbs.
So my thought is often when I’m stalled my calories are too low and the best way to bring them up is to add more fat to my diet. I usually either add butter, have cheese, or eat avocados. I don’t drink coffee so don’t do bullet proof/fast coffee. I don’t really make fat bombs but I do like my full fat yogurt and strawberries/raspberries for dessert many days.
So I agree that trying to hit a macro just for the sake of hitting a number is silly but also I see the need for many people to understand the need for healthy fats in the diet to help them lose weight. I see so many on FB especially that are trying to marry a low fat diet with keto and I just don’t think that works. I suppose there are a few that maybe go the other extreme trying to hit their macros or that worry too much about hitting it as well.
So I guess what I’m getting at is there are valid concerns on both sides of this depending on who is struggling with it. If we could encourage eating real foods and less junk keto snacks, and stressing less about macros I think most would do well

(Edith) #59

With all this being said, when a newbie starts eating this way, and they’ve met their carb and protein goals for the day, and they are still hungry, the answer usually is that they need to eat more fat until they are satisfied.

(Terence Dean) #60

Oh yes and btw Edith I wasn’t having a go at you for that video you posted by Phinney, I’ve posted that very same video on these forums, and I agree its a very good one, I just replied to it because I recognized it. Hope you didn’t take my post as a personal attack, apologies if you did.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #61

The body is wired for the adipose tissue to secrete leptin when there are adequate fat stores, and the hypothalamus is supposed to read this signal and stop the secretion of ghrelin, so that we don’t keep eating. High insulin levels block the leptin receptors in the hypothalamus. Some people do indeed appear to have permanently broken hormonal signaling, but most people find that after a period of low insulin levels, their hypothalamus can sense leptin levels correctly again.

In my case, it took two or three weeks, and when the signaling started working properly again it was in the middle of a meal, with dramatic effects. For me, this signal is quite independent of the fullness of my stomach. There is plenty of room for more food—I just don’t want any, and the thought of more is a bit revolting. For a boy used to cleaning off his piled-high plate and still wanting more, this was a startling experience, the first time it happened.

I am still getting cravings for carbohydrate, but that is a completely different matter from hunger, although sometimes I lose sight of that fact. However, just as my drink cravings cleared up after I had been sober for a number of years, I do expect my carb cravings to go away eventually. I wonder if some people who believe their leptin signaling to be broken just haven’t yet learned to distinguish between real hunger and cravings. In my case, advice I got from this forum was very helpful in this regard.

(Brian) #62

And herein lies one of the challenges of a forum like this. We have young, old, male, female, relatively healthy, totally messed up, people who need to lose hundreds of pounds, people who need to lose 10 pounds, people who just started, people who are into keto for just a few weeks or months, people who have been at this for years, people with extreme hormonal stuff going on, people with various health issues that complicate, carnivore, omnivore, vegetarian, vegan… you get the idea.

All that said, it’s a pretty neat group to be a part of. No matter your inclination or problem, someone else is likely to either be there or have been there. Lots of good and science based stuff, too, as much as is possible. Lots of experience. Lots of wisdom. A good bit of good humor. Good recipes. And a few people we even call friends, maybe.

:slight_smile: