Stop telling newbies to eat more fat!

(Chris - #209

You must be mistaken, they CLEARLY state:


(Bob M) #210

As I said above (I think), I’ve moved from higher fat to higher protein. I no longer eat pepperoni, salami, even guacamole/avocados, have a hard time with pork belly and bacon, etc. I now eat a lot of leaner meats. This does not mean I avoid fat, if I feel I need calories or feel like I’m lacking fat, I’ll eat it, but I feel better eating more protein.

Is higher protein good for the newbie (I’ve been doing this 5 years as of 1/1/19)? I’m not sure. And it may depend on the person, too.

(Keto Kid 4 Life) #211

Helpful thread. Also the articles and videos. Thanks!

(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #212

The Dudes say <20g carbs, moderate protein, and “fat to satiety.” The Dudes are far more scientific about this than so many sources out there that advocate “60-75%” fat or even “70-80%” fat. Strict medical ketogenic diets are exceptionally hard; they can be 90%+ fat. That’s if you’re epileptic.

In terms of someone who’s very overweight or obese, Phinney (and the Dudes) make clear that your dietary intake of fat is going to be much lower than this. Phinney has noted that while you’re losing weight, your diet will look high-protein, because you’re partially fueling your body with its own fat reserves.

(CharleyD) #213

I’m just glad there’s not an Army calculator. They’d prolly send me to the fat farm. I’m athletic for a sailor though! hah!

I’ve still got the nicotine 15 to lose, again…

(CharleyD) #214

No, diabetics get there through many years of hyperinsulinemia. Remember that food intake blips insulin normally, and in a insulin resistant, hyperinsulinemic state, insulin is still produced far higher than necessary.

It’s that question of ‘when do I produce normal insulin levels for any reason’ that isn’t likely to be answered soon.

If you don’t get dietary fat, (like lean meats only?) and also restrict carbs, you’ll bring insulin down, but your hormones will suffer. Probably not a lot at first, as you’ll have plenty of fat to spare, but as you lean out, I bet it wouldn’t be pleasant, the rabbit starvation.

(CharleyD) #215

Mice are also hard to initiate ketosis. Remember it’s our human privilege to be able to switch energy substrates easily.

Maybe if mice were able to hunt…

(bulkbiker) #216

Once you have access to them… i.e you have exhausted your glucose stores and don’t recharge them with carbs… this is where your thread title goes wrong?

(Bunny) #217

Hmmm rabbit starvation now that’s interesting, which means you would have three variables[1] to play with like calorie partitioning or timing when fat, carbs and protein are eaten separately; just wonder how that would work with a beginner on a ketogenic diet verses a fat adapted person, I also wonder if anyone (n=1) has played around with that? All the research out-their is about sugar burners with this calorie partitioning thing but also maybe one could experiment with front and back loading carbs, fats and protein intermittently and in different configurations with circadian timing[1]? Seems to be body builders use a type (carb partitioning) of this method.

Interesting video that talks about this or how carbs, fats & proteins = endocrine hormones

Calorie Partitioning | Why Am I Getting Fat | Dr. Justin Marchegiani

See also: [1] The “Metabolic Winter” Hypothesis: A Cause of the Current Epidemics of Obesity and Cardiometabolic Disease - Raymond J. Cronise, BS, David A. Sinclair, PhD, and Andrew A. Bremer, MD, PhD: “…The concept of the “Calorie” originated in the 1800s in an environment with limited food availability, primarily as a means to define ECONOMIC EQUIVALENCIES? (…what’s up with that? …what about health?) in the energy density of food substrates. Soon thereafter, the energy densities of the major macronutrients—fat, protein, and carbohydrates—were defined. …”

(Adam Kirby) #218

The fear of rabbit starvation is greatly overblown. You would have to be very lean, and eat very lean meat for a while. Bodybuilders are extremely lean and use protein without fat and carbs to get ready for competition, and even they don’t die of rabbit starvation. And they are at the extreme end of the spectrum that 99.999% of people won’t even get to. Rabbit starvation is extremely unlikely to happen to anyone living a normal life.

(Vladaar Malane) #219

I think people are so afraid of fat from dietary guidelines over the years, that going FAT overboard for awhile is a good thing. You really sometimes have to overcome a aversion to fat, as we’ve been told it’s bad since we were kids.

(CharleyD) #220

You’re right of course. My concern has evolved to become more of one of hormone imbalances due to not getting enough of the right fats from diet.

(Bunny) #221

Dr. Marchegiani in the video above talks about receptors becoming “numb” to hormones. Never thought about it in quite that way. But that makes my wheels spin when you think about what Dr. Fung says about fasting, maybe that is what’s really happening when we fast extensively not just in terms of autophagy but giving the body a rest (period of dormancy) from endocrinological double barrel machine gun of hormones constantly bombarding the receptors in our body? This is getting more and more interesting as I try to construct this visually in my head! The food we eat and the frequency of eating seems to be making too many hormones too fast and our body cannot handle it so the receptors recede and contract when too many baseballs come flying out of the canons at the wrong time and the other hormones available at the time cannot bind properly but tries to any way and gets stuck (what autophagy is for?)?

(bulkbiker) #222

That’s exactly what Dr Fung says about fasting… not promoting insulin production… giving our hormones a rest…

(Bunny) #223

Like a Bear hibernating metabolic slow down!

(Bunny) #224

Analogy: Throw enough baseballs at me I am going run for cover into the dug out, what endocrine receptors are doing?

(CharleyD) #225

That’s how drug resistance happens as well. If the signal, whether hormone or opiate molecule has a high enough amplitude and frequency, the receptors downregulate, in order to protect their cell.

It’s a microcosm of the boy who cried wolf, at the cellular level.

Resistance or tolerance is only remedied by fasting. Dropping the signal as close to zero for as long as tolerable.

(Bunny) #226

So what is also happening with all this hormonal bombardment is those hormones are being diverted (receptors down regulate refuse uptake) into the fat cell instead of the mitochondria per Dr. Marchegiani because they have nowhere to go?

A homeless shelter for unwanted hormones?

(Consensus is Politics) #227

I’m under the impression that ‘rabbit starvation’ takes several weeks.

If protein raises insulin enough it could put a halt to ketogenesis. If that happens, you can’t even burn your body fat as fuel. Thus an obese person could starve to death eating only lean meats.

This of course assumes what I have been made to believe about insulin spikes with protein, as well as insulin switching off fat burning are all true.

I have heard of obese people starving to death. But I don’t remember the particulars. Sounds like something that warrants further study (or something I just need to find).

(Bunny) #228

That is interesting the only thing I can think of is that the meat being eaten has enough fat in it or there would be problems?

If you were eating 0 fat rabbit then that rabbit starvation thing would happen?