Starting carnivore again, diarrhea problems again

[gingersmommy]

What else can I do to help with this problem?

Is there a reason you are doing carnivore? Do you have this issue with regular keto (carbs as low under 20 as you can)?

[Bobt]

Thanks for all the information Fangs. Because of my past experience with the same problem I started this time eating extremely clean. I eat about 1-1/2 pounds of red meat a day, flank steaks and ground beef. The only other things that I consume is a cup of coffee with just a touch of monk fruit sweetener, home made electrolyte mixture from Mikhaila Peterson and water, that’s it. I will have a drink or two of vodka and seltzer water later tonight. I work a terrible schedule and have trouble sleeping so I do use Nyquil on a regular basis. I know that’s a bad idea but I have to sleep or the consequences could be very bad.

The coffee might be the culprit. My brother claims that he couldn’t drive like I do because his coffee wouldn’t allow it due to the reasons that you said.

[David_Stilley]

I was tight with my carnivore starting. When I cut dairy out within a few days I had diarrhea. I haven’t used cream since last June. I added it back in and it stopped the diarrhea that night. That fixed it for me, I still want to get dairy free but I will wait till February and taper down. Hopefully the diarrhea doesn’t return. I’m pretty much Beef Steak like Ribeye or New York, or I slow bake a frozen one pound cube of grass fed 80/20 ground beef at 150F for 2 1/2 hours (fat is not rendered and meat is medium rare at 136F internal temperature, some pork butt, eggs and coffee. Had salmon and shrimp a couple times this month and then the added cream to my coffee and I add quite a bit. I’m doing a lot better. I’m not telling you to do the same but it’s working for me. I’ve dropped about 10 lbs since Jan 1st. And I was in maintenance starting into carnivore after a slow decrease in plants over two months to allow slower oxalate elimination and detox. My only condiment is pink salt mixed with potassium chloride.

[FrankoBear]

Get your poo tested?

What I’m about to write may read as a load of crap, as that is what it is. It’s loads about crap. Probably more than any normal, busy with life, person would want to know.

The engineers who are infiltrating the dietary space bring a logic to problem solving. Ivor Cummins oft repeats, “If you don’t measure it, you can’t fix it.”

Especially on repeat episodes of an observed problem that doesn’t respond to symptomatic treatment guesses.

Poo samples can explain a lot.

Some rare/undercooked foods can set up parasitic infections that flare up with diet changes, but are persistent often camouflaged by quiescence.

Also going to note here that despite the carnivore diet, especially the beef-salt-water version, is touted as being an elimination diet for food hypersensitivity, it can also lose some of the innate therapeutic anti inflammatory effect of circulating betahydroxybutyrate ketones, if the diet formulation drops the eater out of nutritional ketosis. That is unlikely for a person carrying extra body fat, but may be a consideration for a lean person.

Excess fats in the stool or diarrhoea can create problems (hence digestive enhancers like lipase and bile acid supplements may help). But do that on the basis of testing.

If you have a functional health practitioner who can help choose, run and interpret the tests, that may be best.

Back in biology based studies and career (not human medicine) a single poo sample only gave limited answers for diagnosis. Especially if infectious parasites were cyclical in their shedding of their infectious form, for example. So I would collect a series of samples from the subject(s). Aiming to include the very worst symptomatic sample in the series. So, at least 3 samples, double kitchen zip locked (clear plastic so as to observe gross changes, like: frank blood, undigested food bits, foreign bodies, excess mucus…), refrigerated - as an aside the poo bags in the fridge reduce snacking psychology, but may negatively impact a share house living arrangement. The best poo samples to look at via a microscope are the freshest as they may reveal swimming organisms, or red blood cells and inflammatory cells before they rupture. Second best is that series of poo to try and capture the cause. Those 3 samples are homogenised and treated as one. If working with some kind of medical professional, they’ll advise on what poo they want.

Even before diarrhoea there may be some clues. Well formed poo stools (according to the Bristol Stool Chart) that contain some undigested fat (maldigestion or malabsorption) seem to float. Healthiness is equated with submarine poops rather than floaters. Basic home test. Too much undigested fat will not allow good form of the stool.

What the consistency of your poo says about your health

…spend much of my time outdoors for work and pleasure

Always at the back of my mind and down in the depths of the differential diagnosis list is alpha gal protein hypersensitivity to consider for the carnivore diet tempted.

[Norm]

Hi gingersmommy, first of all I’m 56 years old and am in good health overall on nhi o meds at all. I’d been on a palio/keto diet for about four years or so when suddenly my health headed downhill. All my joints started hurting hurting, my knees and hands swelled and I could hardly move. My family physician tested me for everything from lyme disease to hep-c and even x-rayed my hand. I went through three rounds of bloodwork that only revealed very high inflammation markers that got higher each round. The x-ray revealed extreme arthritis, my doctor couldn’t offer any real solution so I started researching diet. I went on a whole foods diet and my arthritis improved almost immediately. The only problem then was uncontrollable cravings and constant hunger. This led me to carnivore, cravings and hunger are controllable but being married to the toilet is unacceptable. I have taken advice given by fangs and went with chicken and seafood for the last few days have my bathroom issues stopped immediately. This leads me to believe my body can’t digest and use a high amount of fat yet so I’ll have to take it slow and listen to what me body is screaming to me.so I think I’m on the right track thanks to fangs. That’s the whole story so what do you think?

[Fangs]

went with chicken and seafood for the last few days have my bathroom issues stopped immediately. This leads me to believe my body can’t digest and use a high amount of fat yet so I’ll have to take it slow and listen to what me body is screaming to me.so I think I’m on the right track

holy cow that is so wonderful for you Norm!! I bet the relief that has come with that nasty side effect being pushed aside feels wonderful.

All one can do in the ‘fat dept’ is experiment, use smaller amts, try different types and all and see where you fit in…also as you adapt more and more your situation could easily change for the better. Your gut improves and just keep switching things up and changing as you need. It is ok to maneuver any way you need thru carnivore to make it work for you at all times

Good fat is important so experiment with like a smaller sliver of fatty type steak, little chicken and some seafood. A 3-way combo. You can slowly test your fat comfort level as you change thru the days.

Happy to see that report Norm!! Rooting for you!!! Sounds like you tackled this and things are going well, rock on!

[ReneeRC]

@Norm Even if you can’t handle a certain amount of fats now without supplements to help, you may find after a couple of months of carnivore that you can do without the supplements. I can tolerate rendered fat with no problems now but I couldn’t when I first started.

[Norm]

Yes it is a huge relief!!! It’s funny that it was such an easy fix, I was thinking too big and complicated. I’m in disbelief that at this point in my dietary journey that my body couldn’t handle the the beef i was eating with no added fat. Thanks to you Fangs I have a starting point that I can tweak over time as my gut heals and everything else adjusts. I hope over time I’ll be able to get to the correct protein and energy ratios that I’m sure will not only help me physically but also with mental clarity, mood swings and and irritability. Finally I have something to work with.

[Fangs]

hey there is plenty of good fish and seafood and tons of chicken and leaner beef meats to choose out there to eat Yea. I get that, finally something to work with and now you feel back in control…very cool!

[Ilana_Rose]

I can tolerate rendered fat with no problems now but I couldn’t when I first started.

Interesting, I think I’m getting better at it too.

[gingersmommy]

That’s the whole story so what do you think?

I wish I had some advice to offer you.

I’m so sorry for your issues! Your recent discovery is positive, and I hope continues. I hope that your discoveries and interventions will return you to good health.

Best.

[Norm]

Thanks, I’m optimistic.

[Norm]

@Fangs just a quick update, the last few days I have seen much improved conditions overall. So late yesterday I cooked 6 ounces of steak and 4 ounces of salmon in the air fryer. I knew immediately the steak disagreed with me per the stomach turning and grumbling and general discomfort. Just more confirmation you are correct, so I will definitely lay off the fatty cuts of red meat and let my body heal and recover. It’s going to take a while I’m sure but thanks to you I’m on the right track.

[Fangs]

yea if it disagrees right now it might mean you can eat it later down the line so don’t get discouraged on it.

how are you on some added fats? be sure to use some on your salmon, little grass fed butter (beats regular old butter truly) and you only need a little. Kinda do a baby experiment on little added fat to your food and see where you stand.

You got the right attitude big time. You eat every darn thing that sets great with you and eat all you need and what doesn’t agree, put it on the back burner to try later.

Happy you are seeing what works and doesn’t and hope you feel good tho all thru this process for you improved joints and more

[Bubby1]

I’ve had the runs for 6 weeks, I thought keto would stop it but it didn’t, then I switched to carnivore and I’ve still got the runs. I’m coming off heavy medication cold turkey so that’s probably why but I wish it would end soon. It drives me batty

[Norm]

Yup, I’m going to stick with chicken breast, tuna, eggs and salmon for a while. Then add one item and I’ll know in short order if it agrees with me. I am cooking my eggs with Kerrygold butter, I weight it yesterday and it was 18 grams. It doesn’t bother me so I’ll keep doing that and and also try very small amounts of cheese as a little added fat/treat. I just picked up a high quality Gouda to try, also sauteed up some shrimp using the Kerrygold as well. No problems. So far so good, I’ll just take my time.

[Norm]

Hey Bubby1, I feel your pain! Maybe try and back off the fatty meat like Fangs suggested I do. I knew within two days that was the problem, what have you got to loose. You have more will power than me, i couldn’t put up with that for six days much less six weeks.

[Norm]

Just a little update @Fangs. Cutting out fatty meat and sticking with chicken, seafood and eggs has made an incredible difference in regard to stomach issues. Actually it’s the best that I can remember, the only problem for now is lack of energy. With very little fat intake I can tell the difference at the gym. I’m using a little butter to cook with but other than that no added fats, I may throw in some avacados and maybe some pork to see if that helps without messing with my stomach. Any thoughts, suggestions or ideas on this matter? Anyone out there that has suggestions I would love to hear them. Thanks.

[Fangs]

Yea Norm that is important. Eating leaner is great for the problem but then without the fat we lose fuel big time.

You have to find a way to get it in. A couple suggestions is small doses. Reintroduce like a fatty steak and eat a portion along with some fish or seafood. Make a surf and turf. See how the body does.

Increase your butter intake by a little.

See the use the supps to help the body I mentioned before in the older post help quicker obviously…you might wanna go get some back and read post 2 and get yourself some supplements now. Cause when it says if we eat leaner and take our fat more away, in the end it prolongs your journey thru this fat adaption time but it also makes one feel better LOL but we all know the body is going to have to go thru this. It has to and you have to be eating more fat or you can’t win this for most people…….so get some supplements. And start making combo fatty meals. You know, like a small burger with some salmon. A fatty pork rib and eggs or some combo that is going to give good fats.

We know the fat is giving troubles, you realize with fish/seafood you are doing more well and controlled, but fat has to come back.

It is ok to experiment on yourself now Norm. You got a better standard, you are doing very well with the initial problem and you know where you do stand. Now ya gotta push that envelope a bit So think some fixes like the * * ----For most people, lipase alone does the trick. However, some people need to exogenous bile.----Ox bile, taken with meals, is your next step.

So consider the above and start introducing the fats back.

I have to say being carnivore an avocado isn’t gonna save ya and give you enough fat at all. You need the good meat fat so I would introduce little and little more over and over and push the limit and see what happens.

I am so glad you got relief but the fat is super important.

Hope it all works well for you

[Norm]

Thanks Fangs, I knew you would have some advice/experience for me. I was kinda thinking the same thing but wanted confirmation. The foods I add in i will weigh and keep detailed logs of so that way I’ll know exactly what triggers reactions. I think I’ll try lean ground beef and pork first as I’m afraid if beef😱. If experimentation causes problems I’ll first start with the Lipase, thanks again. I’ll keep you posted on any progress or lack there of.