Sodium / Potassium in the Modern and Primal diets

(Butter Withaspoon) #10

Thanks Michael! I have some reading to do. Your studies and info are much appreciated

#11

True. Like the Masai :slight_smile:

I used to like Black pubbing as a kid, then for some reason that disapearred from the diet for many decades only to discover it again when travelling in Ireland 8 years ago.

#12

“Glacial milk” - the rivers flowing out of the mountains in the Himalaya can be very mineralised.

(Bob M) #13

If you sous vide your meat, such as steak, a trick is to drink the juice that is in the bag. I do this often.

(Laurie) #14

Thanks, @ctviggen. I dislike soups and gravies, but drinking the juices in a cup is painless. I just wasn’t sure whether there was much nutrition in the liquid.

I’ve noticed that loose ground beef (cooked in oven or stove top) reabsorbs the juices if you let it stand a bit after cooking.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #15

A few thoughts:

First, the PURE study, and another one published around the same time (the name of which I forget), which was two or three years ago, both determined that the healthiest range of sodium intake was 4-6 g/day, which translates to 10-15 g/day of sodium chloride (table salt).

Second, it is known that a high-carbohydrate diet causes the kidneys to slow their excretion of sodium. Embarking on a low-carb diet causes the kidneys to return to their normal, higher rate of sodium excretion. (Lack of sodium is the cause of the symptoms known as the “keto flu.”)

Thirdly, the experience of long-term carnivores is that most of them at some point stopped adding salt to their food, since apparently the salt already present in their meat is sufficient for their needs. (No one is sure how or why this happens.)

Lastly, it is clear that our ancestors knew about their need for salt. Many traditional societies, back when they were living on their traditional diets, were quite aware of where the animals in their range went to find salt licks. Classical antiquity saw a thriving trade in the mineral, and the word “salary” is supposed to be derived from the the salt allowance given to Roman soldiers.

Given that the body’s regulatory mechanisms for calcium, magnesium, potassium, and sodium are all inter-related, and given that salt intake is the easiest to control, getting our salt intake in the proper range helps keep the others balanced, as well, without too much concern for supplementation.

As for your concerns about balancing sodium and potassium, I would tread very carefully. Disruptions of potassium can be deadly, whether hypo- or hyperkalaemia. The experience of re-feeding concentration-camp survivors after World War II showed that the potassium balance is easily disrupted. Unfortunately, many of the people suffering from re-feeding syndrome died, until doctors figured out what was going on, and how to treat it.

(Bob M) #16

I got this from Amber O’Hearn, so it’s not my idea.

You can also make a sauce with it, but whenever I do this and pop it into a pan, it gets “scum” on it, that quite doesn’t go away.

So, I’ve just been drinking it.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #17

@PaulL Check out the discussion I linked above between Passwater and Moore. Moore’s assertion is that our paleolithic ancestors consumed far less sodium and much more potassium from all food sources. Consequently, they had a much higher K:Na ratio than currently. In fact, his argument is that humans evolved in a low sodium and high potassium environment and that elevated sodium causes many health issues.

From this study I linked above:

…This effect of the Western diet is not solely attributed to high sodium content but rather the dramatically decreased dietary potassium-to-sodium ratio. In industrialized countries, the daily intakes of potassium and sodium are ≈30 to 50 and 80 to 250 mmol per day, respectively. This is in sharp contrast with isolated or primitive societies, having the daily rates of 150 to 290 mmol for potassium and 20 to 40 mmol per day for sodium.5 Therefore, estimated potassium-to-sodium intake ratios range from 0.12 to 0.63 for industrialized societies and 3.8 to 14.5 for isolated societies. According to the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey, only about one tenth of US adults have potassium-to-sodium intake ratios consistent with the World Health Organization guidelines for reduced risk of mortality.6

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #18

Staruschenko’s article contrasts SAD with a diet of fruits, vegetables, and nuts, which you have argued in many posts is not the diet on which we evolved. If he had included a reference to the diet of the Maasai and other tribal societies that ate a diet of mostly meat, and had discussed their rates of hypertension, I’d be more inclined to finish reading the article.

In the interview with Moore, they assert that the potassium/sodium ratio is the cause of all metabolic diseases, but I have never seen that asserted before, and I would like to see some evidence and a plausible mechanism before accepting that. The reading I’ve done up till now suggests the interference of elevated insulin as a mechanism for causing the so-called “diseases of civilisation.” The various mechanisms by which insulin acts are highly plausible (e.g., interference with NO production being the root cause of hypertension, etc.), especially in combination with the historical data (for example, gout, Type II diabetes, and dental caries were commonly found only in those who could afford sugar, until mechanically refined sugar became cheap enough for the masses to afford).

The Nutrition Data link is not working for me, so I can’t comment on it.

(Bob M) #19

Yeah, how much potassium are the Maasai and Hazda getting, relative to sodium? And are there studies like this? My guess: probably not.

#20

I usually fry and roast things or make a stew so no matter what animal, I don’t get extra liquid, even if there is a little when I make roasted pork, it gets jellied so nicely, it’s fun to eat :wink:
But I usually eat all the meat anyway, I eat the whole pig heart too, even the chewy, odd parts, I just cut those off and ground it first :wink: The cats would love those parts, surely but they don’t get it :smiley: They get bones after I made soup with them (they always contains not very little meat I can’t get off quickly enough).

Sodium is an interesting topic. For some reason, some people need much and others need little. And surely some people don’t seem to mind any reasonable amount… I only experienced an upper limit for myself as I never went very low, my taste requires 4-5g salt a day and that seems to be enough for me since many years, no matter my actual woe. But I just eat according to taste, I couldn’t really control my salt intake even if I wanted. I wonder if longer term carnivore will make it way lower as for some people… I already eat my carnivore food less salty as before.

Maybe I should figure out my potassium intake, I haven’t the vaguest idea about it, I just know the recommended amount is high and that the recommended amounts of nutrients may be very far from our needs on our individual diet.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #21

True and true. And I also doubt a low K ratio is the source of all that ails us. Meat is source of potassium - nose to tail. Yes, I’d like to see something about K ratio of typical meat. Not farmed grain-fed but meat on the hoof. I’d especially like to see something on Pleistocene megafauna. There are studies on modern bison. I’ll do a doc search later after I get home from work.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #22

True, and I agree it would have been helpful to include the Maasai and the Inuit for comparison. To the best of my knowledge - to date - our Pleistocene ancestors did not consume significant quantities of plant based nutrients for the simple reason there were few to consume. Even plants that they did consume were quite nutrient dilute. Some researchers claim otherwise, but I have yet to see convincing evidence. Nuts, for example, may have been a seasonal, occasional exception.

As would I. However, I’m really interested in responding to the OP question:

…if the Keto / Primal ? etc diets are derived from ancient human food habits, then why is there such a thing on upping the sodium and potassium intake. Ancient peoples don’t appear to have had access let alone the need to use copious amounts of salts.

Did our pre/Pleistocene ancestors really consume 4-6 grams of sodium per day, as you have stated above and in other numerous posts as the ideal amount based on the PURE study? Or did they eat a lot less sodium and more potassium? Is Moore correct that a natural, unprocessed human diet is rich in potassium and low in sodium? Did our pre-Holocene ancestors evolve to eat a diet rich in potassium and low in sodium? Has our love affair with sodium only begun since the Holocene? I’d like to find the answers to those questions if I can.

I think it’s quite plausible that if humans evolved in a low sodium high potassium metabolic environment - ie a higher K-factor - the reversal of that in the few thousand years since the advent of the Holocene might have a profound effect on metabolic function and health - maybe causative and/or aggravative.

That’s too bad. I find it lots easier to navigate than the USDA, from which it draws its data.

Let’s start with a general observation. Potassium occurs in a lot of foods, including meat, that our ancestors would have eaten. Yes, plants are the primary concentrators of potassium from the soil. But ruminants eat the plants and we eat the ruminants, so the potassium gets passed up the food chain even if in diminishing quantities. Our ancestors did not have to eat ‘fruits and veggies’ to get potassium.

I think the first question requiring an answer is how much potassium did Pleistocene megafauna contain and what was the K-factor for those animals? I don’t know if that question has a definitive answer or not, but I’m going to try to find one.

The following article is not directly relevant - although probably indirectly so - to the sodium/potassium ratio question. But it references lots of very interesting evolutionary/adaptive issues and contains many refs. It’s also a very interesting read. Lots of good stuff to know here. For example:

… Humans can earn tens of thousands of calories per hour hunting medium-sized animals, in contrast with the meager 1,431 calories from foraging plants [27]. Human specialization for hunting large animals during the Pleistocene provided even bigger returns [28]. Our fat stores and our hunting seem to go hand in hand.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #23

Although it’s an interesting question, forgive me for not getting excited about it, until my earlier question about why they blame metabolic disease on a low potassium/sodium ratio is answered. Something sounds off about that idea, and until we know what it’s based on, I’m not going to get worked up about the rest. For all I know, they actually have good data and a plausible mechanism to explain how it works, but then so do the people who believe that metabolic disease is caused by hyperglycaemia and hyperinsulinaemia.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #24

On the other hand, I think the more interesting question is how did consuming 4-6 grams of sodium per day become healthy (assuming it is). That’s a lot of sodium so there has to have been a reliable and steady source for a very long time during human evolution. Was that source meat and fat? If not, then what?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #25

Well, the experience of modern-day carnivores is that almost all of them somehow get enough salt, without having to add much, if any, to their food.

As I mentioned, all traditional societies are very aware of where the salt licks are. You merely have to track the game to find them. I don’t see a problem with how our ancestors managed to get enough salt, however much they needed.

Why is there an assumption that 4-6 grams is not healthy?

As for the observed risk curve, since two independent studies on large populations observed it and confirm each other, I tend to think it is valid. But you are right; the data are observational, and there may be confounders.

It would be interesting to use the same data collection methods on the sodium intake of modern-day carnivores, to see just how much sodium they are actually getting in a day. That would probably answer some of these questions, and probably stimulate fresh ones.

(Bob M) #26

Not to mention that finding out how much sodium or potassium we’re getting in a day is impossible. You can get close – maybe – but not really. For instance, I had a drink of olive brine after my morning workout. How much potassium or sodium did I get? I just had some spaghetti squash in butter with beef heart and a beef hot dog, with some added salt, and a bit of sprinkle cheese. How much potassium and sodium were in there?

And I know that Michael is about to tell me all about his incredibly accurate scale and whatnot, but I refuse to measure anything. Sorry. Brings back years of measuring everything so I could keep my fat content below 10% by calories.

Edit: Sorry, got interrupted. I sous vided the beef heart at 160F for 24 hours. This allows me to eat the fat on the beef heart. If I use lower temperatures, the fat is inedible.

I tossed the liquid that was in the bag. Normally, I drink this. But this did not look that appetizing, and I was running late to take my daughter to the bus stop.

But tossing the liquid means I lost “something”, probably some sodium and potassium. How much? I have no idea.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #27

My initial suspicion - not even an hypothesis - is that we’re currently eating more sodium and less potassium than we adapted to during our evolution. I suspect the closer one eats to a low carb - not even necessarily keto, just a lot lower than typical variations of SAD - the less sodium you need for health. I further suspect that low potassium intake is likely just as or possibly more significant than sodium intake. I also suspect that those of us eating keto or carnivore, which I think is much closer to our ancestral diet, requires less sodium than SAD. And I suspect sodium consumption increased in tandem with carb consumption only with the onset of the Holocene.

(Edith) #28

I will admit, I have no idea how much sodium I consumed on SAD, but I was a conscientious eater even then, following the dietary guidelines, and kept my sodium intake low. I did NOT have to toss down salt pre keto like I do now. In fact, I frequently bloated up after having a high sodium meal. I’m sure my sodium needs have gone up on keto and now carnivore.

And even will tossing down an extra 2 teaspoons a day of salt, not including what is in and on my food, my BP is still around 100/60. Without that salt, it drops.

(Robin) #29

That’s interesting… your BP drops even lower without salt. I’ve always had low BP and since going carnivore have noticed it’s even lower. Didn’t connect the two. Hmmm…