Sneaking Up On Maintenance - Any Suggestions?

(karen) #1

I started keto in late April, and I’m coming to a point in my journey where I’m just about ready to be in maintenance mode - maybe 3-5 pounds more to lose.

My issue is that I feel in retrospect I haven’t really been losing weight because of keto. I’ve been losing weight because of EF. Keto definitely helped me get rid of 10 pounds of water, and it’s probably helping to keep my weight from rising dramatically, but I have no real evidence that keto at the calories and macros I typically eat is driving my weight down or even holding it steady.

Anyone else going through this sense that in order to maintain, they’re going to have to EF once a week for the rest of their lives? Anyone having a problem with that idea? I’d really just like to eat “like a normal person” - that is to say, adequate (keto-friendly) calories of lunch and dinner every day, with the very occasional pizza slice.

#2

This might sound like heresy, but keto doesn’t make you lose weight. Keto is only a tool. Keto actually made me GAIN weight. To be more precise, it was the endless snacking that I did while on keto that made me gain weight. For you, it sounds like keto enabled you to EF, which made you lose weight. I don’t know if you need to EF to maintain, but if you start gaining weight back then you might need to either start watching calories or doing some fasts.

(karen) #3

Yeah, sigh. I’m just facing the same fear as everyone else, I guess; I’m so happy I lost the weight and I don’t want it back. ANY of it, thank you very much. My pace of loss at best is about half a pound a week. I’m tiny and my weight is tiny, so a five pound experimental gain could be another three months of effort and focus on diet - and not fitting properly in my clothes and not feeling good about my accomplishments and so on and on. Bleh.

  • not really sure what I’m looking for from the community - please come to my house and lock my cupboards, ha ha - but thanks for your response.
(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #4

Dr. Phinney makes it sound as though maintenance is the same as the previous phases: low carb, moderate protein, fat to satiety. From what I can tell, stopping when satisfied is everyone’s stumbling block, since eating for non-physical reasons is always possible, given that satiety leaves our stomachs only half-full.

Trying to ignore cravings is difficult at best, but I do trust the logic that eating in such a way as to keep insulin low most of the day will permit my stored fat to be mobilized. Perhaps what I need is a pacifier to put in my mouth when my food addiction raises its head.

(karen) #5

Lol, yeah. I needs a Chewz!

It’s true that “to satiety” is usually “and then the three bites that are still on my plate”. Yesterday a piece of a roll I was buttering for my hubs broke off. I put it on my plate. I took a bite and it really wasn’t anything to write home about. Then I ate the rest of it. :roll_eyes:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #6

Oh, yeah! Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, it “shrank” and I gave it away! :smile:

(karen) #7

It just bothered me, because apparently the mentality that it’s better to put it into my body than the garbage, where it belongs, is still with me.

(Robert C) #8

Keto helps you lose weight due to playing with hormones - so does EF (even more so).

But, having to plateau bust with EF near maintenance means your body wants to hold on to more than you think it should want to.

From what I have read about on this - stress could be something you want to look in to.
If you are stressed all the time the body wants to hold more reserves (cortisol goes up) for future perceived battles (that seems to be how it is explained anyway).

That is a time when EFs are the only way to continue downward (unless you are instead being unrealistic about where you want your weight).

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #9

Set a new goal. Weight loss or exercise, or even just maintenance.
You got here with certain habits. You will do well in maintenance if you maintain those habits, and redirect them to related goals.

I am close to goal weight. My next goal will involve either: inches or fitness. This is where I messed up a year and a half of maintenance my last go with this program. I moved and did not set goals around reestablishing my habits. But before the move, I was maintaining at a B+ level, with exercise goals replacing weight loss goals. As Pops said to Luke Cage:
Always Forward. Forward, always.

(karen) #10

Thanks. I will try to focus more on de-stressing, I’m admittedly not the most laid back person around! - Plugged my numbers in and got this:

Based on the Robinson formula (1983), your ideal weight is 111.8 lbs
Based on the Miller formula (1983), your ideal weight is 120.1 lbs
Based on the Devine formula (1974), your ideal weight is 105.4 lbs
Based on the Hamwi formula (1964), your ideal weight is 105.2 lbs
Based on the healthy BMI recommendation, your recommended weight is 97.9 lbs - 132.3 lbs

https://www.calculator.net/ideal-weight-calculator.html?ctype=standard&cage=55&csex=f&cheightfeet=5&cheightinch=1&cheightmeter=180&printit=0&x=65&y=24

I’m around 118, so snugly in the middle of these, I’m just going by spots on my body that annoy me, but maybe this is as far as we go.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #11

I would look into figuring out your lean body mass, rather than using a generic formula like those.

I currently have about 169 lbs of LBM. As a 45 yo man, 6’.5"
Those formulas spit out the following:
Based on the Robinson formula (1983), your ideal weight is 167.0 lbs (would have to lose LBM to get there)
Based on the Miller formula (1983), your ideal weight is 162.8 lbs (Ditto)
Based on the Devine formula (1974), your ideal weight is 173.6 lbs (2.8% bodyfat)
Based on the Hamwi formula (1964), your ideal weight is 180.2 lbs (6.2 % bodyfat)
Based on the healthy BMI recommendation, your recommended weight is 138.3 lbs (lose 30+ lbs of Lean Body Mass) - 186.9 lbs (9.6% Bodyfat… RIPPED ABS).

When I was in high school, I was lean and playing on varsity team, I weighed between 175 and 192. I was a very skinny teenager, and could not possibly get back to that without losing LBM.

I HIGHLY recommend determining your goal weight based on your lean body mass and desired composition, rather than these formulas.

(karen) #12

I agree - what I’m mostly doing is standing in front of a mirror thinking ok, that looks / feels good, but oh, the batwings have gotta go. I like my calves, not so happy about my thighs. Tummy could be a bit flatter. And then estimating, based on that awesome/weird picture of what five pounds of human fat looks like, that 5 pounds would do it. So … composition, or maybe inches. I was just curious about where conventional “wisdom” would set my goal - interesting to see how much lower that would have been in the year I was born!

Also Really interesting to see how different my numbers are from yours! My “ideal” weight doesn’t budge from (what I think is sort of crazy skinny for me) 105 pounds in ten years, while you had to drop seven pounds to be “ideal”. All hail the expert: n=1!

(Brian) #13

Doesn’t the body kinda get accustomed to where you put it? If you drop your weight from 130 to 118, your body probably doesn’t have any sense of 118 being where it needs to be. It just dropped the weight because you’ve required it to use some it’s fat stores to get there, perhaps kicking and screaming, but you’re there. Now that you’re at 118 (if that’s where you want to stay), just keep it there. If you need to use fasting to keep you there, use it. If you stay at 118 for several months and you are rigorous about keeping yourself there, you might train your body to the idea that this is where you belong. 108 is too little. 128 is too much. 118 is just right. Make it your new set point and stick to it. Over time, it should become more natural feeling. Your body won’t have to wonder what you’re doing to it because you won’t be asking it to change.

At least that’s my theory. :wink:

(karen) #14

I like it, but I think the going theory is that the body has its own idea about setpoint. That you can artificially manipulate it, but basically it will seek to return to a weight it’s already “determined”. (I don’t mean to say the body is thinking, more like familiarity, like maybe fat cells have a certain elastic capacity or shape established over years that they naturally revert to when given free rein.)

ETA: perhaps as you say it’s true though, if I can keep it “artificially” at a setpoint of my choosing, eventually that will be the norm.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #15

For yet another perspective, the Virta Health site contains a chart of “reference” weights and recommended protein intakes. The weights are derived from standard weight/height tables printed by the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company and posted in doctors’ offices everywhere when I was a child, (cough ahem) years ago.

https://blog.virtahealth.com/how-much-protein-on-keto/

(Lisa F) #16

So this may reassure you a bit - I’m near maintenance and lost the last 15 with some very determined EF over 8 weeks. Then I realized that fasting was making me binge eat during my feasting phases so I committed to 3 square meals a day to address the emotional eating. I was really really worried I’d gain it all back. I haven’t. I track pretty religiously, keep myself at about 75/20/5 with never more than 30 net carbs in a day and I’m holding. I think the EF helped heal my metabolism and I’m able to maintain a lower weight doing just Keto.

Ymmv of course but thought it might help a little.

(karen) #17

113-126. :). I’m actually listening to Stewart Philips talking about protein intake right now. Definitely on the other end of the spectrum from Valter Longo.

(Troy) #18

This

This may be great time to get a DEXA Scan @kib
Just a thought…I kinda did this too😄
Then I had a pretty chart and pictures to go back too😂
Then you can set some exercise goals. Cardio and or weightlifting
Change around your EF and protein too

For me, less streesful and I’m not falling in to “ I’m bored “ so eat…or eat WAY more

Good Luck

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #19

Table produces numbers in the same range as all those others.
I don’t think of myself as particularly muscular or big boned, and yet, at 72-73" of height, it wants me somewhere between losing 10+ lbs of lean body mass to holding a <5% amount of fat mass…

No thanks. Determine your lean body mass, and work from there. Insurance companies deal in averages. I’ve never met an average person.

As an aside, why does Virta convert the protein grams to ounces. No one eats ounces of protein. You eat ounces of things, like steak, which have grams of protein. I don’t understand that table. at 1.2 - 2.0 g/kg, and a median goal weight of 168, I get 91-152g of protein (I aim for 125, so on track).

Ah… I see it. If I were eating a lean protein source, and getting 7g of protein per ounce, 13 ounces of lean animal protein squares the circle. I maintain that this is a dumb way to present it. Smart folks at Virta who might do this thing less dumb.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #20

As I understand it, the “reference” weight is a construct intended to provide guidance for people who have no idea what their lean body mass might be. Yes, I’m sure Metropolitan Life intended the weights proscriptively, but I really don’t think Virta does. And yeah, the ounces are ounces of meat, not ounces of protein. They could be clearer about that. The article explained it, but it should be mentioned in the table itself.

ETA: someone in another thread pointed me to a lecture by Dr. Naiman, in which he asserts that there is no such thing as too much protein. I will need to check out the studies before I’ll be convinced, but his argument was persuasive.