Shoulder tendonitis and keto or carnivore diet

(Edith) #236

It is all very individual and dependent upon where you were before your keto journey began. If one is a very metabolically unhealthy person, it might take him or her years to heal, years before they can handle starchy or higher glycemic carbs, if ever. If the person is metabolically healthy or an athlete doing keto for optimal health or performance, that person may not need to worry about carbs at all. She may even want a bit more carbs to target around work outs or sporting events.

You just have to figure out what is going to work for you. Anything can be keto if eaten in the correct quantity. But if it is something sugary or starchy, would you be able to put on the brakes in less than 20-30 grams of carbs? Some people find that even the smallest amount of a sugary carb, even fruit, will set them off into terrible cravings. Some people find that while some fruits are fine, if they have a potato, the appetite brakes come off. I have no problem eating fruit and vegetables in moderation, but put a tortilla chip in front of me and I will keep going until the bowl is empty. I am not capable of eating less than 20-30 grams of carbs where tortilla chips are concerned.

The question is always: why would you want to go back to what caused your health problems in the first place? I may stop keto some day and go towards a more paleo type diet, but I know I will not go back to how I ate pre-keto.

I will add one last thought: sometimes we don’t know how bad we fell until we feel better. It’s possible that oatmeal or something else you used to eat contributed to your inflammation, but your inflammation was enough that you really didn’t notice any difference when you consumed the oatmeal. Once your inflammation decreases and then you eat something that doesn’t agree with you, you will notice because you now know what if feels like to feel good. I hope that makes sense. I am mildly rambling here.

I did a carnivore trial for a while. I am no longer carnivore, but I stick pretty close to it. I know pretty quickly if something I add back in causes trouble because my body and/or joints will hurt. I don’t think I would have found these intolerances without my trial. I guess my entire message is boiling down to: you will need to experiment with yourself and see how and when you can reintroduce foods, which ones, how much, and possibly scale back if necessary.

#237

I don’t know if it’s psycho somatic or what but for the past couple of days I’m feeling much less pain moving my arm at my shoulder. Certain positions like the outward movement of my arm and when I’m lying in bed on my back and raise my arm still hurt but I’m feeling much less pain and I’m only on keto starting my second week. I haven’t taken any NSAIDS or rub any lidocaine or other of my other go to salves for pain. I’v had this pain for a solid year this month.

I haven’t eaten it yet but is full fat sour cream and whole milk Greek Yogurt keto?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #238

I hope so, because I eat them.

If you are staying under your carb limit, technically any food can be keto. It’s more a question of whether you can eat little enough sugar (or whatever) to stay within the limit, and not go on a binge. Can you eat three grapes, or seven nuts, or whatever, and stop?

Myself, I avoid sugar (sucrose under its many names) entirely, because I am a sugar addict. I find it easy to stay under 20 g/day when eating lettuce, broccoli, and cauliflower, so I don’t worry about them. I am happy with less that one serving (as defined by the manufacturer) of Greek yoghurt, so I don’t worry about it, either. But I might have to worry, if I were intending to eat the whole container at once, lol! And I never buy the flavoured varieties of Greek yoghurt, only the unflavoured type, because the flavours all contain a ridiculous amount of added sugar. With sour cream, I look at the carb content and limit myself accordingly.

#239

So then inflammation is more from overeating than the type of foods we eat?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #240

Acute inflammation is usually a response to trauma or infection. Chronic systemic inflammation can be caused by a number of things.

One source of systemic inflammation is over-consuming polyunsaturated fatty acids, particularly of the ω-6 type (which is why we strongly advise avoiding the industrial seed oils). Another source is chronically elevated serum insulin, such as is caused by a high carbohydrate intake. So it’s more a matter of the types of foods, not so much the number of calories involved. Eat so that your fats are mostly saturated or mono-unsaturated, and avoid carbohydrates, and you could most likely eat enough food to satisfy your hunger without having to worry about calories.

#241

I don’t even think I ever need much healing but my body very, very, very clearly told me it likes my carb intake LOW. As time passed, I went lower as I could, my body liked it and I eventually got benefits I didn’t get on my original, carbier keto. I have off days as they are worth it to me (and I have no real control anyway, at least not directly, it’s complicated. eating right makes things way easier so cravings don’t come).
I can suddenly eat even a lot of sugar without problems in most cases (I do feel it’s not as ideal but I don’t feel unpleasant unless I REALLY overdo it) but it’s not good and unneeded so I only do it rarely when I can’t resist or I know what am I doing.

A ketoer usually can and often does eat an ounce of rice (I prefer Jasmine, thank you very much. higher GI than table sugar :smiley: but who cares if I like the taste and my body doesn’t complain?) or some sweet potato on a keto day… A small amount of anything fits keto if we just want to be in ketosis, usually. I choose not to add such items for reasons but if I fancy it once in a blue moon? So be it. But it’s individual.
So many things are. Some people need to stick to keto. Others do it because they don’t miss anything. Some people go off for social or performance reasons but they come back soon. And so on. I met people who had to leave keto as they couldn’t eat enough even when more and more underweight, something with their body signs were off, probably eating disorders can do that too… Keto isn’t magic and isn’t for everyone.

It works for some. And totally NOT for others. I prefer to eat anything I want all the time so I go for that even if it involves a lot of experiments, making new recipes and training. But I always loved keto food (not all, sure, I have my taste and I got super choosy as time passed. I ate almost anything as a kid). It didn’t mean I could just skip all carby food forever, some people meets keto and stay there without problems, that’s not me… But I didn’t crave various stuff on keto (I only missed vegs and fat, actually and I ate them just not as much as I wanted. but as much as I wanted was a wrong idea) and it’s even less so on carnivore.

I have no idea what that is but it’s my body’s job, I don’t need to think about such things. I eat good food and my body does what it should do. I am an European and never heard about that custom (it means nothing, I am pretty much a hermit and don’t talk with people in my country. I still here this and that but not this).

Very much. In the right amounts. But to me, almost everything is keto as I can eat them in small enough quantities… Keto (my definition, all about ketosis. not some bunch of rules that many ketoers don’t even try to follow as it’s not needed for ketosis and possibly bad for them) doesn’t ban items, it just limits your carb intake (and maybe some people should avoid certain items or they interfere with ketosis…? of course they can mess up other things, just being in ketosis isn’t enough).
In my own case, yogurt is tricky as it’s easy to overeat carbs that way and it doesn’t help with fat either and I need to be careful with that. But in small amounts and if I don’t have a bunch of other carby items? It’s good.

(B Creighton) #242

I get my goat yogurt at Trader Joe’s. It is $5.69/qt right now which will rival most any Greek yogurt, and as I have said is more ketogenic because it has twice the MCTs of the cow dairy Greek yogurt. I typically sweeten it with a tbsp of xylitol and a tbsp of erythritol/monk fruit sweetener. I typically add collagen to it, and when working out, I add creatine as well. I flavor it with berries, tart cherries, etc. I enjoy the frozen boreal blueberries at Trader Joe’s. When not doing keto, I may sneak in whipped mango, or the like. Then after that I typically have a whole red grapefruit which I follow with a sandwich that has banana and raisins(def not too keto). So, I actually eat quite a bit of fruit on a daily basis. Sometimes my dessert is cottage cheese topped with canned fruit salad(no syrup). Even when doing keto, I had the fruit in my yogurt and ususally the grapefruit.

#243

I fractured (Hill Sachs fracture knocking tendon off) and dislocated my shoulder 3x in January '21.

Ultrasounds showed calcium in tendons too.
I don’t eat many vegetables due to lectin sensitivity and I do take K2m7 along with vit d.

Recent ultrasounds showed no calcium in my shoulder tendons now, 18 months on. Doctor said it looks like a different shoulder.

(Robin) #244

I am chomping at the bit here to emphasize the need to go keto for healing and then remain keto to maintain that healing.

I had significant arthritis, painful joints and inflammation. They gradually and steadily improved, to where I have zero pain and my last blood work showed my inflammation is at a .05 (the scale is 1-30). So I basically have no inflammation. Which means I have flexibility and increased range of motion.
When I have stepped out and eaten too many carbs, my knees and hips and wrists will immediately become inflamed and sore and stiff. It’s the best reminder in the world that this is NOT just a quick fix. It is the way I want to live my life. Feeling good and pain free.
If you return to your old way of eating, you will return to your old arthritic self.
It is worth it. Period.

#245

“But I didn’t crave various stuff on keto (I only missed vegs and fat”

Wait a minute. Aren’t vegs and fat allowed on keto. Isn;t that the whole point?

I’m eating fatty meats, and chicken, low carb steamed veggies and salad, after 9 days there’s much less shoulder pain

#246

How does your shoulder feel?

#247

Not that I’ve been diagnosed with arthritis…you still convinced me.

#248

There is some concern that a carnivore diet can lead to kidney stones and gall bladder problems. Do you feel this is justified?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #249

No. The problem, at least as Dr. Annette Bosworth tells it, is that the stones that were already there start to shrink, and can become dislodged, and thus cause trouble. The new way of eating did not cause the stones, but is in fact getting rid of them. It’s just not an instantaneous process.

#250

Of course. But only a little veg (they are carby especially if one doesn’t touch green leaves. I always ate them in bigger amounts as they are mostly water, not satiating, easy to eat…) and I can’t just eat as much fat as I wished, that would be overeating. My overeating high-carb times broke my expectations, those times were done 11-12 years ago but I still daydream about eating much fat sometimes… But eating right helps a lot. As long as I can get satiated (and have my very high-fat day here and there), I am good enough.

Yay, it’s good news :slight_smile:

#251

I do eat a large salad lunchtime, mostly dark leafy greens, cucumber, green pepper & jalapeno, radishes, celery, some carrots, sometimes tomato and from time to time a little anchovy, olive oil and apple cider vinegar. Then I have some meat. Dinners include some steamed kale I grew, broccoli, cabbage and sometime some other dark greens steamed making sure they’re low in oxalates then more meat, chicken or fish. I may have a slow cooked glass of bone marrow stew I slow cooked for a couple days. Breakfasts are usually a couple of eggs, bacon and Italian style dry salami sizzled in the pan.

#252

@trucha

If you are comfortable doing so, would you be able to post what you’re daily eats are here? I am wondering if perhaps you’re not taking in enough healthy fat, if you’re getting hungry after a few hours.
I did also see in a previous post, your inquiries about eating bread (pita or flat bread), or adding in some carbs. My own joints are a testament to how bad an idea it is to add in any of that stuff. Wheat- doesn’t matter if its unbleached, organic, non-GMO…it is high in insoluable oxalates. Think “shrapnel from a grenade” on a microscopic level - in your joints. You may think that’s a bit dramatic, but let me just say- I’ve lived it - and getting that crap out of one’s system is not pleasant. Having to do it more than one time during one’s life leaves that person smacking their head, and asking “why did I eat that damn…whatever!!!” over and over again.

Depending on what your daily eats are, just add some butter to everything. I use melted butter as a dipping sauce for pretty much every meat. Its delicious. I’ll add it to coffee just for a bit of extra nom noms. If you need or crave something that is soft and creamy, trying making a steamed egg pudding/custard. So ridiculously easy. Equal parts egg and water (or chicken broth) steam in a pan of water for a few mins until set. Add some braggs amino’s for a salty dish, or a SF drizzle of Torani for something sweet.
Even a spoonful or two of Full Fat plain Greek yogurt is better than carbs, and you get the bonus of good bacteria.

Just don’t go back to carbs. This can be such a difficult transition, but I promise you, its worth it.

#253

In addition to the meals I just posted I’m eating plenty of fatty meats oils and butter. It’s just been over a week since I started this diet. More time is needed but my shoulder is much better than a week ago and I can only attribute this to my change in diet.

Butter is a great suggestion for some of the more drier less fatty proteins like grilled tuna.

What do you think of pre cooked bacon? One of the ingredients it’s cured with is sugar.

(Robin) #254

Oh, haha! I remembered pain in the shoulder. Forgot it was tendinitis. Oh well, I would still say the same. I have a torn rotator cuff from years back… still have it of course, but the lack of inflammation means I usually can’t feel it. There will always be less range of motion there, but it doesn’t interfere with my life.
BTW, after about a year on keto, I began using a rowing machine every day just to keep the old joints moving. Not in it for anything but to remain strong and flexible. I don’t go hard core, I just keep moving.

(B Creighton) #255

Thanks for that info. Before taking K2, I was probably just kind of hobbling along with whatever K2 my Bacteriodes made. There is some doubt in the literature that the body absorbs any K2 in the colon, but yet, they have found the long chain K2s Bacteriodes make such as K2m10 stored in human liver. It’s got to be absorbed somewhere since we don’t make it. I really had no idea that I was probably somewhat deficient in K2 due to my diet primarily being from grain fed chicken and meats. My germanic ancestors ate more fermented foods like sauerkraut, which has some K2m7 from Bacillus subtilis. The Japenese eat natto, a fermented soybean product quite high in K2. In fact they have somehow selected a strain of Bacillus subtilis v. natto that makes the most K2 known in the world.

I have come to believe that K2 is completely underappreciated by Western science for our health. I have no other explanation for what brought down my blood pressure. Anecdotal evidence by others such as yourself is powerful.