Should The 20g Carb Limit Be Raised If Highly Active

[tararene2005]

I’m glad to see you posted this question because I’ve been wondering the same thing.
I think I want to join a cross fit gym. I currently do not workout what so ever and I have a desk job.
I’m probably 15-20lbs over weight. Its going to be a little painful at first to just get adjusted to being active.
Will it be possible to stick to keto? Is working out going to make me more hungry? Don’t know till I try…

[tdean]

Yeah i know for myself, my digestion and mood are in a better place if i’m at around 20-50g even if i’m really pushing the envelope.

Nathan, you can get away with eating more carbs because of the amount of training you do but my question is does it increase your cravings for more sugar or carby foods when you get them higher than 50g? I found that going to 70-100g really brought back those old cravings, just wondering whether burning those extra carbs off would affect that for you or not?

[Baytowvin]

You’re WRONG @tdean. Actually, I forgot what we were talking about, I just haven’t had a good argument in a while.

[tdean]

You’re WRONG @tdean. Actually, I forgot what we were talking about, I just haven’t had a good argument in a while.

Not this time, I never mentioned calories…that word in my post to Nathan at all but if it makes you happy just substitute calories for carbs!

I screwed that up but its fixed!

[Baytowvin]

[juice]

If you had to formulate a blanket rule for highly active ketonians that runs parallel to the blanket rule of 20g/day for sedentary ketonians, what would you begrudgingly recommend?

I’m with the others (well, except TJ) in that a blanket rule ain’t gonna work for something like this. General principles, perhaps, but I think we’ve already got them overall.

Also, I saw someone speaking of carb withdrawals…

[Baytowvin]

[Meerkatsandy]

My country’s first famous keto dietician claims that those, who need to add carbs, didnt spend enough time fat-adapting and “gave up” too quickly. He says that you dont need to increase carbs in any way. I guess everyone has different experiences and ideas regarding how and where the body’s optimum level is.

[atomicspacebunny]

If you had to formulate a blanket rule for highly active ketonians that runs parallel to the blanket rule of 20g/day for sedentary ketonians, what would you begrudgingly recommend?

Maybe this is what your looking for:

If you’re consuming more than you’re losing, you’re in positive nitrogen balance - gaining muscle

If you’re losing more than you’re consuming, you’re in negative nitrogen balance - losing muscle

Protein is able to stimulate protein synthesis without the aid of carbs - also leucine has been shown to stimulate protein synthesis …More

Endurance Athletes and Ketosis: Dr. Berg discusses the debate on what should be eaten during exercising. Go no carbs? Do high carbs? High fats? Somewhere in between? Dr. Berg strips away a very common false datum and gives some insight in this subject.

Note: all the research links Dr. Berg mentions posted underneath this video were dead and I cannot track them down without the titles…

Commentary: 6 month keto adaption vs. an endurance athlete just starting ketogenic diet e.g. 3 months in vs. the need for carbs when it comes to speed…

[gitanacv]

Nathan, as you know, I have been doing keto lite over the last 30+ days, meaning not strict on carb intake but still eating more fat than a standard diet. I have found I have stayed in ketosis despite the relatively high intake of carbs, 150 to 250g net carbs a day. I found this very surprising because I had expected to be out of ketosis. So, if you are highly active I think you can stay in ketosis despite higher levels of carb intake. The lowest I have been is .2 but typically I have been between .6 and 1.2, sometimes higher. This may be due to the fact that coupled with the high exercise I am also keeping overall caloric intake low, roughly a daily 1800 calorie deficit. So, in answer to your question, I would say yes, one can raise the carb levels. As to whether they should, that might be a more philosophical question.

[240lbfatloss]

During training, I routinely consume 20 g of Dextrose before and 40 g afterwards. It has never kicked me out of Lipolysis since it’s all quickly used. Since it’s used so quickly it’s not counted in the daily carb count. This is a principle of TKD, and has been used for decades by people who train.

[PaulL]

Is working out going to make me more hungry?

Since physical activity is one of the things we do to work up an appetite, I think it’s safe to say that yes, you’re going to get hungry. Fortunately the solution is simple: if working out makes you hungry, eat food! Seriously—don’t worry about the calories, just let your body tell you how much it needs. As long as you are keeping your carbohydrate low enough, that is the pathway to metabolic health.

As far as the topic of this thread is concerned, two points:

First, the fact that your body can handle something is not proof that it’s actually good for you.

Second, keto/LCHF should really be called the “low-insulin diet,” because that is the point. If you like carbohydrates and miss them, and your body can handle them without raising insulin levels, then go for it. Unless you, like me, are a carb/sugar addict, in which case going for it is probably contraindicated. A lot of the questions people raise on these forums about someday being able to eat more carbohydrate sound to me a lot like the questions newly-sober alcoholics ask about being able to drink again someday.

Just saying.

[Baytowvin]

I have found I have stayed in ketosis despite the relatively high intake of carbs, 150 to 250g net carbs a day

I am also keeping overall caloric intake low, roughly a daily 1800 calorie deficit

Okay, I left you alone on your thread, but if you’re bringing your bullshit over here, you’re fair game again.

You’re still in ketosis becuase you’re literally STARVING yourself. At an ESTIMATED (because, again, your app doesn’t really know) 1800 calorie deficit, your version of ketosis is exactly why so many doctors freak out about this way our eating.

[PaulL]

Even more important, he is continually lowering his metabolic rate to compensate for the caloric reduction. As many of the “Biggest Loser” contestants found, this is not a recipe for health.

[juice]

Second, keto/LCHF should really be called the “low-insulin diet,” because that is the point.

This.

[T1mbro]

@Nathan_Toben

Might get a variety of responses base do on why you are asking. A lot of people do Keto to keep insulin low sure but others might just want to be in lipolysis (I know for this insulin needs to be low) for other reasons, athletic performance being one.

So is your question how many carbs can I get away with?
Or
Are they beneficial for athletic performance in certain circumstances
Or
Since I’m really active do I need more (for now or until I am adapted even more 6 months down the line)
Or
Just simply and scientifically how is the interplay that regulates insulin ketones etc affected by expending greater amounts of calories daily

I am personally interested in the bottom 3 but since a lot of the science seems to come from a prevent T2D angle still a lot of questions although Faster study was a good floodgate opener.

[Brunneria]

Ya know, if anyone wants to come up with a ‘blanket rule’ for anything, then I vote to ban the phrase ‘kicked out of ketosis’ - on pain of being beaten by thistles soaked in lemon juice.

No one gets kicked out of anything (except maybe the trendy kool kidz klub).
Ketosis isn’t an On/Off switch. It is a dial. And even that is a bad analogy. We only have to worrit if that dial goes waaaaay over 11.

Plus, even if someone tests (random time of day) and registers no ketones, doesn’t mean that they haven’t been dipping in and out of ketosis all the other 1,339 minutes of the day. Even people who have never heard of the K word will flirt lightly with it, and skip merrily through its outskirts if they miss a meal, or during the night.

So, to summarise:
Skipping merrily, flirting lightly, twisting random dials and thistle beating is OK.
Kicking is not.

[Gail]

I have been transitioning into LCHF for a year. I have lost over 20 lbs., HA1C is at 5.0, fasting glucose levels are down from pre- diabetic levels, and my blood pressure is down. I am 72 years old, and at high risk for Alzheimer’s disease and breast cancer. This diet should prevent those diseases. I also do intermittent fasting 16/8 About 2 months ago I began taking my blood ketone levels periodically. Urine strips indicated I was always in ketosis, but I didn’t believe it. Blood ketone levels after 12-16 hour fast confirm that I am always in ketosis to my surprise. My levels this week have been from 1.0 to 4.0 which was a shocker. That was after a day of purposely trying to increase my levels of fat with increased levels of olive oil and fish oil. I am APOE4 positive so following Dr. Steven Gundry’s Plant Paradox keto diet for APOE 4’s, I have been eating mostly seafood and green leafy vegetables. I believe it is important to get at least 5- 9 servings of vegetables a day for optimal health, which is what I do. I do take a small dose of a great greens powder every morning in my smoothie. I am happy to report that it is possible for me to eat closer to 50 net carbs / day and remain at good levels of ketosis. I think you can’t know what works for you unless you test your ketone levels at least a few times. You can learn a lot. Also, many people don’t know that your liver can turn protein into glucose if it runs out. Gundry recommends lower levels of especially animal protein.

[PaulL]

Also, many people don’t know that your liver can turn protein into glucose if it runs out. Gundry recommends lower levels of especially animal protein.

Many people on this site are familiar with the process of gluconeogenesis, by which the liver converts protein (amino acids, actually) into glucose. This process is driven by demand, not supply, because it doesn’t occur if dietary carbohydrate supplies enough glucose.

Interestingly, the scientific experts seem to be learning quite a bit of new information about nutritional ketosis. For example, it used to be believed that the amount of glucose produced through gluconeogenesis (in the absence of carbohydrate, of course) was completely dictated by the amount of available protein; now we know that other processes regulate the generation of glucose to the level needed by the red blood cells and others.

It used to be the assumption that the brain needed a certain minimum amount of glucose or it would lapse into unconsciousness; now, Prof. Bikman is calling that assumption into question, and Dr. Phinney is quoting a study done forty years ago that appears to show that the brain actually needs very little glucose, if any at all. We certainly do know that the brain appears to function more efficiently on β-hydroxybutyrate than on glucose.

On the basis of his own research, Prof. Bikman has questioned the customary fear of too much protein in ketogenic circles, especially given that we have trouble assimilating protein as we age and can all too easily lose muscle mass if we don’t eat enough protein. Dr. Naiman has taken up the protein leverage hypothesis, and can quote numerous studies, in both rats and people, to illustrate his claim that too much protein isn’t even a thing. Prof. Bikman’s view is that this has to do with the maintenance of the insulin/glucagon ratio in the absence of carbohydrate.

[juice]

Dr. Naiman has taken up the protein leverage hypothesis, and can quote numerous studies, in both rats and people, to illustrate his claim that too much protein isn’t even a thing.

#VOTE1PROTEIN