Should The 20g Carb Limit Be Raised If Highly Active

exercise
running
(Nathan Toben) #1

Everyone is unique. Some individuals are kicked out of ketosis by consuming 20g carbs a day. Some athletes can consume 100-200g carbohydrates before a quality workout and be back in ketosis by day’s end.

SO:

If you had to formulate a blanket rule for highly active ketonians that runs parallel to the blanket rule of 20g/day for sedentary ketonians, what would you begrudgingly recommend?

Looking to start a discussion around the science of metabolic flexibility, what goes on inside the highly active ketonian, and hoping to steer away from comments such as, “figure out what works for you”, “get tested” etc. While those comments can be helpful to keto athletes, this thread is hoping to illustrate a correlation between daily energy expenditure in a fat-adapted individual and daily carbohydrate limits.

(less is more, more or less) #2

As an active LCHF’er I have a natural interest in your question. You’ve also unwittingly nagged me into reading The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Science-Low-Carbohydrate-Performance/dp/0983490716

I look forward to the discussion here.

(Jeb Bower) #3

Sorry, no science, just my real world experience. If you’re body’s accustomed to burning fat for fuel, then there shouldn’t a need for any additional carbs. I did low carb once before several years ago and was running at the time, up to and including a half-marathon. Low carb was always an argument on the running forums, but I can tell you from experience, that I never felt like I was lacking energy due to my low carb diet.

#4

I would wager not very many endurance athletes do strict keto. I don’t know if it’s because they’re just skeptical or if it really is not ideal. Maybe do keto on rest days or lifting days when you don’t need the energy for cardio. Or do strict keto all the time and eat more fat for energy.

(Tim ) #5

@Nathan_Toben I know I’ve mentioned this guy before but here is a set of blogs on just this thing! I think the science is behind on this as pretty hard to study. so likely no studies but he’s been doing it for years and thus spent a lot of time dialling it in. Might be of interest especially given your volume. Timing seems to be the key…

https://zachbitter.com/blog/

The way I read it and also listening to the latest HPO podcast (there’s a question on this topic) it’s not nescessarily about intensity but about how quick you refil glycogen stores from fat/ GNC. If doing a LOT of activity this may need/help to be boosted by carbs. Knowing that’s the purpose I’d say the blanket rule is add carbs to fill your stores but only if you have depleted them a lot (v long or v intense session) and only if the time to next needing them (glycolitic exercise) is short.

(TJ Borden) #6

Can you? Probably.

Should you?.. if it’s something you WANT to do and doesn’t cause any ill effects, I guess. It’s up to you.

If there was all of the sudden some formula that told me I could have 200 grams a day and have the same benefits as 20…I’d still probably stick to my near zero.

(KetoQ) #7

Nathan –

Ask me this same question in another month or two.

I walk 24-40 miles/week, bike 10-20mi/week, HIIT bike train 1-2x /week and weight train 2-4x/week. For the past 4.5 months I’ve been averaging 50g carb/day. This also takes into account fasting days. So what I’m saying is, the days I do eat, I’m eating closer to 60-75g carbs/day.

I am now working to reduce carbs on my eating days closer to 20-30g/day. I’m curious what this will do for both weight loss and workout performance.

Sometimes I do pre-workout meals that include carbs. For example, I’ll cut up a peach and add to a cup of cottage cheese before weight training. Or, take an apple along on a long bike ride. Nothing scientific, but I feel that the extra carbs give me a bit more energy. And its really the only time I eat fruit, if I’m doing a longer workout, so it can help fuel the immediate activity.

I don’t compete in anything and am not really interested, because I like to do my own thing. I’m lowering carbs more for weight loss. But I don’t like feeling run down or fatigued during the week because of my activity. I’ve actually had good energy on eating at this carb level.

More to come …

Q

(Todd Allen) #8

Activity increases tolerance for carbohydrates. But there are too many variables to make a formula. An hour of weight lifting or an hour of biking can each vary hugely in the calories burned. Testing blood glucose and/or ketones - breath or blood can tell you a lot about how your body is responding to your diet, especially in the context of varying levels of exertion.

(Nathan Toben) #9

I agree I think with the vibe of what you are saying.

The question isn’t so much concerning “ill effects” of increasing carbs but tackling the question of what happens in the body to highl active ketonians when they increase carbs and are there ill effects of sustaining 20g or less a day for a highly active individual such as a mother with newborn twins, an electric tower repairman, a bike courier, a personal trainer, a construction worker, a triathlete.

(TJ Borden) #10

There are a lot of opinions that it can cause issues long term, but I’ve never heard or seen anything REAL in either science, or n=1 examples of that being the case.

As long as they’re metabolically healthy, someone working out like what you’re referring to could probably handle higher carbs with the idea that they would be quickly burned for fuel.

If they’re not metabolically healthy, then probably not. I wasn’t a lineman, but I spent several years in the construction industry as a door/window installer and service tech. It was a pretty active and physically demanding job, but even it wasn’t enough to overcome insulin resistance. To keep my pace, I’d have to keep eating through the day, and I kept putting more weight on, despite burning more calories than I was eating.

I would be curious to get a Dexa scan to see what my lean body mass is. I’m guessing it’s above average to be able to carry my nearly 500lbs up 32’ extension ladders to install 3rd story windows.

(Raj Seth) #11

I’m with him ^^

Many people ask “how many carbs can you get away with?” I’m with Tj &@rgbigun on - “Why would you want to?” I like what I live on for sustenance. I like that it is just that - sustenance! I occasionally have a meal that I look forward to - juicy ribeye, high fat burgers, bacon laced eggs, buffalo wings, pork rinds and liverwurst, …

wait - that is more than occasionally :grin: anyway - back to regularly scheduled programming

I like that I am in control of my body and the food I put in, and not slave to the food. I like that if, like Bear Gryllis, I were to be stranded on a desert island, I would not have to resort to eating maggots - at least not for a few weeks.

With all this upside - why would I want to go back to carb-addiction? or carb-anything? Its not like I need it for anything…

Anyhooo - to each his own…

(Raj Seth) #12

and with 500lbs you need that super expensive ladder too… :grin: ask me how I know…

(TJ Borden) #13

You know it brother. I learned from a manufacturers rep years ago that the weight rating they put on ladders is half of what it took to cause failure while it was in the horizontal position (like a bridge). Even at that, I’ve only ever used the ones rated for over 300, and yeah, they’re spendy AND heavy.

(Nathan Toben) #14

Thanks for your input guys! Yeah i know for myself, my digestion and mood are in a better place if i’m at around 20-50g even if i’m really pushing the envelope. Although come the weekend, my body does seem to want more carbs. This could be lingering carb addiction. This could be having gone a little too low-carb throughout the work week. This could be compounded stress causing cravings (which might be a healthy craving). Still learning how to ride my daily/weekly/monthly keto rhythms.

(Raj Seth) #15

Solution - go ZC Carnivore. Then won’t have to worry about varying your carb intake - can double, triple, quadruple or even 10x it any day with no negative impact :grinning:

(TJ Borden) #16

I get that every Sunday during football season :rofl:

(Katie) #17

I have been testing carnivore for a little over a month now. I do CrossFit (does anyone else drink the Kool-Aid here?), and weightlifting, and I have been struggling lately. It is possible that other life stressors are adding to this, but my gym performance has decreased. I am not ready to give up carnvore though.

(TJ Borden) #18

Could be a transition, just like going keto originally. I know when I first went carnivore I had a mild keto flu all over again.

@Dread1840???

(Chris) #19

Sadly, I’ve never had keto flu. I’ve had acute electrolyte problems, however, and that did suck. But salt fixed it.

I can only guess but I attribute my lack of an official keto flu to how heavily I’ve always craved salt since birth.

On the other hand, I HAVE experimented with much more than 20g carbs and exercise performance. Stayed pretty much in keto but didn’t really notice very much if any difference. This was for lifting weights. I used 42-85g of dextrose an hour before hitting the gym for about 2 weeks, probably not long enough to really tell. I was just tired of all that sweetness first thing in the morning.

(Katie) #20

No, this is not keto flu, but I see your point.