Should carnivore be the starting point?

(bulkbiker) #142

You might the videos on @amber 's you tube page from Carnivore conference interesting too

#143

Can tinnitus be regarded as an “-itis”?

(Elizabeth ) #144

16 months carnivore here after 2 years of strict keto. Knowing what I know now, I think that so many of what carnivores described as adaptation symptoms may possibly be related to oxalate dumping. If I had to do it all over again knowing what I know now, I would probably have taken 6 months to slowly reduce my oxalates before going full carnivore. Don’t get me wrong, I was starving on keto and I can see carnivore or something close being my final landing place.

(Kirk Wolak) #145

Yes it can. Don’t remember the exact podcast, but one person with like 10yrs of tinnitus reported even his doctor was shocked it went away with his dietary changes. Although his doctor was not attributing it to that…

Just FYI, I got an immediately improvement in my psoriasis (stopped bleeding) when I cut nightshades (tomatoes, especially). But after that, it SLOWLY got better as I got healthier and the longer I went. I would say it was 80% cleared in a few MONTHS, and by the 6 month mark was 90% and now is undetectable.

So evaluate yourself FIRST as to how bad it is, scale of 1…5 type of thing. And track the progress daily. I believe it will reduce before it goes away.

I’ve had itchy ears (candida overgrowth, for sure) and that is 99% gone, and I have far far less ear drainage… Still some. But I still eat things I am finding out I should not!

I would say it’s worth a try, and again, at least 28 days.

Let us know how it goes!

#146

I have been carnivore for approx 14months and have just discovered that my Ferritin level has gone up massively in the past 3 months. I have a vitB12 deficiency and go to doc every 3 months for injections. My doc is not in favour of keto diet and I only told her I was carnivore when I discovered I had VitB12 issue. I get blood tests done every time I go to see her to prove that carnivore is a healthy diet!
3 months ago my ferritin was approx 300, now it is above 600. I eat beef, pork, lamb, duck, salmon, trout, sardines, eggs, occasionally chicken and liver. I drink still and sparkling water, no dairy, no tea/coffee, no alcohol, non smoker. I have done occasional fasting, just finished a 100hr fast the day before my last blood test.
I am due to have hemochromatosis test later on this week but my doc is blaming the carnivore diet :frowning:

I was diagnosed with T2D in March 2018 but got my hba1c down to normal using keto diet before changing to carnivore.

#147
(Elizabeth ) #148

It could be a methylation issue, you might need to take a methylated supplement

#149

I tested negative for hemochromatosis. I listened to the full interview with PD Manganese and also read the book. One of his suggestions for decreasing ferritin levels is to donate blood. I have already made one donation - I will get my ferritin level checked again in a couple of months. I am continuing with the carnivore diet as this is the best diet for me (despite the high iron) and will donate blood every 3 months.

(Robert C) #150

Hi @dexter,

I too got into the mid-700’s in ferritin and I too tested negative for hemochromatosis. I dabbled in Carnivore but I think the level rose mostly due to the higher meat intake in the long term just from plain old Keto.

According to the podcast, ferritin under 100 is the sweet spot for health. Going Carnivore to “top up” your iron levels to 300 or 400 and depending on quarterly blood donations to get you back down to 200 or 300 sounds risky (I’m just guessing at what your numbers will be given Carnivore and the history of slow iron excretion). Phlebotomy (if you can get it) might be better as it might get you below 100 once in a while but, the continual intake of iron will require it forever - and doctors and insurance might not like the (expensive) “forever” plan (i.e. obviously Carnivore might not be a good lifestyle choice for someone with an iron overload tendency - which only gets worse with age).

Based on this post I ordered the book “Dumping Iron” (thanks @FrankoBear) hoping to find a trick or two outside of bloodletting. Unfortunately, I cannot donate blood because I lived in the UK in the early 90’s. If I cannot do it through diet, I’ll have to pressure my doctor for phlebotomy. I have made it from over 700 down to under 400 so far.

Changes I’ve made:

  • Lots more eggs as a protein source (lots of 3-egg scrambles - sometimes adding meat, sometimes adding avocado)
  • Pork and chicken instead of beef (I always thought grassfed beef was awesome but found it to be too full of highly available iron - now it is very once-in-a-while with milk only)
  • Dropped liver
  • Drink 10 ounces of milk with meals with meat (calcium reduces absorption of iron)
  • Add cheese (same - calcium reduces absorption - used along with milk just to bump up total calcium - it seems that a smaller dose of calcium with a meal with meat doesn’t make much of a difference)
  • Avoid multi-vitamins (which contain vitamin C) and alcohol - both of which enhance iron absorption
  • I’m trying Lactoferrin (apolactoferrin)

If you know of some other tricks (not mentioned in “Dumping Iron”) or useful links it would be great if you’d share.

(Robert C) #151

@dexter and @FrankoBear…
Chris Kresser mentions Lactoferrin in this video:

(Katie) #152

For many poeple carnivore would be an ideal starting point. Besides what others have commented about the adjustment being too big for people to handle after a lifetime of eating SAD, there is a concern for oxalate dumping for some people.

(Robert C) #153

This is a very general statement and, per the posts above, post menopausal women and older men should know their iron status before starting Carnivore. Older men are especially prone to fall for the argument that we need extra protein to avoid muscle loss as we age. While true, it doesn’t mean you want to do it through the most iron rich foods you can buy.

Iron overload does not really have any telltale symptoms and our iron excretion rate goes down as we age. Yes, Carnivore can help some people in real trouble - especially with something like an autoimmune disorder but, Carnivore for an otherwise healthy person is not a zero-risk diet option. And how you do it is important too. One may add vitamin C supplements to a Carnivore diet thinking they are missing it from fruits and it cannot hurt - actually it increases iron absorption is a really bad thing to do if your ferritin is high.

If your ferritin is already in the 200s or 300s you can move yourself above 700 (see @dexter above) and into needing therapeutic phlebotomys in just a few months of Ribeye steaks. The scary thing is that for a long time at the beginning of Carnivore you might feel better, clearer, lose weight etc. all while giving yourself a real hard-to-deal-with health problem.

(Bob M) #154

How many people have an issue with iron? Is your case unusual?

For instance, my ferritin is 47, the one and only time I had it tested, just recently. However, I also give blood, and will give blood this year either 5 or 6 times (may have missed one opportunity).

I take Vitamin C…sometimes. Not often.

(Robert C) #155

16 million Americans (estimated).

Per the podcast linked above - giving blood is very good for iron issues.

Even so, it is all about iron absorption and excretion for most people (as most people do not give blood - 10% do and only 37% can in the US).

People with primary / hereditary / genetic hemochromatosis excrete at something like 20% of the rate of others. So, you can imagine Carnivore is going to be trouble pretty quickly for a person with that condition. Often undiagnosed or misdiagnosed (as ferritin tests are not standard) it leads to organ damage, heart attack, diabetes, cirrhosis of the liver, arthritis, depression, and premature death. Carnivore would definitely be an accelerant. Knowing your iron status (ferritin level and a 23andMe test for the primary hemochromatosis) would be a good way avoid killing yourself with Carnivore.

People with “iron overload” (high ferritin - sometimes called secondary hemochromatosis) due to lifestyle combined with happening to have a lower than average excretion rate will also eventually have the problems listed above if they jump up the amount of meat they eat with highly available iron content.

That is the absorption side of the issue. Eggs have about half the iron of Ribeye steak but, eggs also have chemicals that reduce the absorption of iron. Red meat iron is readily absorbed. People doing Carnivore and choosing a lot of red meat could be in for a real surprise if they ask for a ferritin test at their next doctor visit.

(Bob M) #156

I listened to that podcast, as I like Ivor’s info. Yes, no doctor ever gave me a ferritin (or GGT) test. I got those after hearing Ivor discuss them.

I am one of those few people who give blood the maximum number of times each year. Though I’ve been doing it so long, I don’t even remember why I started.

I could see iron being an issue on carnivore, for those people susceptible to this.

Which is too bad, as I think red meat (i.e., beef) might be the healthiest meat.

(Robert C) #157

I think grassfed beef might be the most beneficial meat there is (in terms of nutrients and fat profile) except - obviously - that “beneficial” is relative to your iron status (i.e. not “healthiest” if it is giving you too much of what you already have dangerously too much of)

(Bob M) #158

We are in agreement about beef. I mean, an argument might be made for fish/seafood, too, but I personally find it easier to eat beef than fish.

Obviously, your iron status and iron’s effect on you affects this decision.

By the way, some argue that too little ferritin is bad. Supposedly, the low should be 50, and mine is below that “low”. So, you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. :grinning:

(Robert C) #159

I think it might be easier to stop giving blood than to stop eating red meat (by a lot!).

(Bob M) #160

Well, I’m personally not too concerned. If my ferritin was 10 or something not just outside the “normal” range, I’d think twice about giving blood.

Before I give blood next time, I should get another ferritin taken, then get another test a week or so after giving blood, to see what happens.

#161

Such great comments and information @RobC Robert and @ctviggen Bob. It does start with a couple of starting points as per the post topic. Starting point one is the way of eating. Starting point two is the health status and biology of the person.

Those who claim ignorance, disinterest, or rely 100% on the their body’s presumed “innate intelligence” can be in for health surprises. Those who are inquisitive, good at synthesising knowledge and adapting to new (to them) information based on their own n= 1 monitoring are weaving a path for longer healthspan.

It is important (my opinion) to know things about one’s self. It is just one approach to achieving the base life goals of not waking up tired, moving around pain free, maintaining a thirst for knowledge, and being well enough to help others.

Your caveats to the initial question of “Should carnivore [insert keto, or vegan, or paleo etc] be the starting point?” push the starting point back from just a decision of how to eat to one that answers the conundrum of why and what to eat. And that starts by knowing one’s own baseline.

The fact that people have the response of lowering ferritin by blood letting is fascinating and good news for blood recipients. It harks to a violent ancestry where blood letting through misadventure or fighting may have been a regular occurrence and the warriors and hunters who survived to breed may have passed on that survival trait?

[ I worked, and surfed, in the south west of England in the early 1990’s and loved eating a Scottish Angus beef steak or three while living there. There were a few occasions where I went on rounds with the Agriculture Department veterinarian to collect blood from supposedly docile dairy cows that had suddenly become cranky and unable to walk (Mad Cow Disease). I saw the animals first hand. They were still easier to work with than an Austrailan beef steer who, just out of a sense of fun, would chase a person up and over an 8ft railing fence. But the English vet was very concerned. The diagnosis was as suspected, bovine spongiform encephalopathy. We will be allowed to give blood if we are symptom free after 2032]