Should carnivore be the starting point?

#134

this is true

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #135

I was just watching the Q&A from a recent conference, and it now appears that broccoli and cauliflower can depress thyroid function. Blast!

#136

Well that is not good. I already have some thyroid issues. Hmm. Maybe other foods that help thyroid function will balance it out. I’m not giving up my broccoli!

(Bunny) #137

As long as you get enough iodine broccoli is fine!

Balance? Iodine & DIM support (broccoli)?

3 “Healthy” Habits That Could Be Hurting Your Thyroid: Restricting salt, replacing iodized salt with natural unrefined salt, and consuming plant foods that generate isothiocyanate can all have their place in a healthy diet, but raise the risk of iodine deficiency. Here’s how to spot the problem and what to do about it.

See also:

[1] Do You Have Low Iodine? The Link Between Iodine Deficiency & Cancer

[2] The thyroid, iodine and breast cancer

[3] Changes in Dietary Iodine Explains Increasing Incidence of Breast Cancer with Distant Involvement in Young Women

#138

There is current interest in plant chemical defences. Micro doses of botanical biochemicals have been lauded for their hormetic effect.

Unfortunately humans fall prey to the illogical assumption that you can’t get enough a good thing. Which makes us susceptible to poisoning ourselves. First with false logic. Then with biochemistry.

Brassicas, cauliflower and broccoli are low carb vegetables that contain sulforaphanes, a plant biochemical. If a ketonian or lazy carnivore practitioner eats a lot of these plant foods they get the possible benefits along with the toxic side effects.

Dr. Salad speaks about these plant biochemicals.

And recently on Peak Human podcast:

(Bunny) #139

That’s why we need more organic sulfur (MSM) in our diet because you have non-organic pesticides, herbicides, fungicides (bioaccumulates in the body as a fat soluble substance) sprayed on the plants besides the plants natural defense systems. Then you have the ground soil being leached of organic sulfur from growing on it so many times then replaced with chemical fertilizers.

The only way to get a fat soluble bioaccumulate out of the human body is to make it water soluble (sulfated/sulfation/sulfonation), that is what organic sulfur (MSM) really does by additionally keeping glutathione stable (i.e. its three molecular bonds), it permeates and cleans the communication channels of every tissue and cell in the body.

When any cell in your body loses glutathione…IT DIES? And if you do not have another stem cell to replace it…YOU DIE?

Notes:

[1] “…Administration of MSM reduces the depletion of glutathione caused by exposure to toxins subject to sulfation for elimination [31] …”…More

[2] ”…Glutathione has several additional functions in cells. For example, it is (i) a reserve form of cysteine, (ii) stores and transports nitric oxide, (iii) participates in the metabolism of estrogens, leukotrienes, and prostaglandins, the reduction of ribonucleotides to deoxyribonucleotides, the maturation of iron-sulfur clusters of diverse proteins, (iv) involved in the operation of certain transcription factors (particularly those involved in redox signalling), and (v) the detoxification of many endogenous compounds and xenobiotics [11]. …” …More

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[3] “…Fat-soluble molecules, such as steroids, alcohols, and some vitamins, can dissolve in the lipid portion of the membrane, which is how they diffuse into and out of the cell. Water-soluble molecules, however, cannot pass through the hydrophobic middle portion of the phospholipid bilayer. Instead, they must diffuse through membrane channels. Even then, only ions or very small molecules can fit through such channels. …” …More

[4] ”…The importance of glutathione in human disease: “…1. Introduction: Glutathione (GSH) is a water-soluble tripeptide composed of the amino acids glutamine, cysteine, and glycine. The thiol group is a potent reducing agent, rendering GSH the most abundant intracellular small molecule thiol, reaching milli-molar concentrations in some tissues. As an important antioxidant, GSH plays a role in the detoxification of a variety of electrophilic compounds and peroxides via catalysis by glutathione S-transferases (GST) and glutathione peroxidases (GPx). The importance of GSH is evident by the widespread utility in plants, mammals, fungi and some prokaryotic organisms [1]. In addition to detoxification, GSH plays a role in other cellular reactions, including, the glyoxalase system, reduction of ribonucleotides to deoxyribonucleotides, regulation of protein and gene expression via thiol: disulfide exchange reactions [2]. The tripeptide can exist intracellularly in either an oxidized (GSSG) or reduced (GSH) state. Maintaining optimal GSH:GSSG ratios in the cell is critical to survival, hence, tight regulation of the system is imperative. A deficiency of GSH puts the cell at risk for oxidative damage. It is not surprising that an imbalance of GSH is observed in a wide range of pathologies, including, cancer, neurodegenerative disorders, cystic fibrosis (CF), HIV and aging. The role of GSH in these disorders will be discussed in this review. …” …More

[5] ”…Nature appears to use sulfation of endogenous and exogenous molecules for primarily two purposes including enhanced elimination to avoid potential toxicity and induction of specific cellular or acellular responses. Sulfated molecules may also serve as reservoirs of bioactive principles, which are released upon sulfatase-mediated hydrolysis. Sulfation of xenobiotics is an important mechanism of removing potentially toxic agents from our body.2 Metabolic sulfation, or more appropriately sulfonation, occurs in the cytosol through the action of one of the sulfotransferases and 3’-phosphoadenosine-5’-phosphosulfate (PAPS), which donates the activated sulfonate group (SO3−) to an acceptor alcohol, phenol or amine group.3 This introduces anionic character in the molecule, thereby enhancing its excretion properties to avoid potential adverse effects. Even more interesting is exploitation of an essentially similar mechanism to induce a specific biological response. This mechanism involves the sulfation of biological molecules, especially carbohydrates, to generate unique sulfated ligands. The enzymes that catalyze these biotransformations are sulfotransferases, i.e., carbohydrate sulfotransferases, which play important roles in cell signaling, adhesion and several other functions.4–6. …” …More

[6] Glutathione peroxidase (GPx) (EC1.11.1.9) is the general name of an enzyme family with peroxidase activity whose main biological role is to protect the organism from oxidative damage. The biochemical function of glutathione peroxidase is to reduce lipidhydroperoxides to their corresponding alcohols and to reduce free hydrogen peroxide to water. …More

[7] Fat and Diabetes: Bad Press, Good Paper, and the Reemergence of Our Good Friend Glutathione - Chris Masterjohn “…The authors of this study did not measure glutathione levels, but the hypothesis that glutathione is protective is consistent with a study I wrote about in a post back in January, “Eating Fat and Diabetes.” In that study (6), high-fat diets depleted glutathione and impaired insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance in rats and mice, but treating the rats with a mitochondrial antioxidant and genetically engineering the mice to make lots of the antioxidant enzyme catalase both reversed these effects. Catalase is an enzyme that converts hydrogen peroxide to water. …” “…If this is correct, does a “high-fat diet” cause diabetes? The obvious question that must follow is “which high-fat diet?” An anti-inflammatory, invigorating, nutrient-dense diet likely protects against diabetes regardless of whether it is low or high in fat . …” …More

(Kirk Wolak) #140

I love this question, but the fact that it comes from a Keto experienced person tells part of the story of the problems with it.

I had to go Carnivore. I tell my full story elsewhere. If you can name something (Lectin, FODMAP, oxalate, phytate) I am reacting to it. I am a mini-mikhalia peterson. Only carnivore and Fasting got me HEALTH and losing weight.

THAT is the problem. We have so many different people with different issues. Even as you described the fridge “Eggs, Dairy” that would kill me. BUTTER gives me a migraine, and in quantity will cause weight gain through inflammation (and that is drawn butter)! Heavy cream has proteins I do not tolerate well…

The answer is we need a way to describe WHEN it is probably most appropriate to go full on carnivore as a starting point.

Here are the starting points, and MY triggers for them, chime in, it will help us.

  1. KETO (20g of NET Carbs): If you can get into deep purple pee sticks on 20g of carbs, have at it
  2. Careful KETO (20g of Total Carbs or less): you have a tough time making ketones, have some inflammation
  3. Carnivore (Zero net carb goal): You have inflammation/edema, plugged sinuses for a long time, get migraines and suffer from any “itis” (arthritis, dermatitis), psoriasis, or are taking major meds for these kinds of things. Food Allergies. If at least 2-3… the more you have the more reason to do it.
  4. Carnivore (is appealing to you): You love bacon, meats, could leave the rest (I am ALMOST here)

My buddy could literally do 40g of carbs a day and make ketones. I was 5g/day, and if I went over by almost anything, I was out for 2-3 days.

Diet soda knocks me out, and prevents results from fasting!

==
So, we are going to need a diagnostic way to do this, AND a way to gauge the person we are talking to. I am trying to get someone on the program, and they are struggling after falling off. To me, this means they did not find enough stuff they enjoyed, and they were not focused on reducing inflammation enough!

But that would be my approach. Present the food choices as “It really depends on your body, your desire to eat certain things, and your WHY…”

If you have someone who is eating crap food, and wants the smallest possible change… I push IF and OMAD, and helping to get them there… My brother is an example. He cannot control his dinner. But he gave up breakfast after 50 years of never missing it. That got him to slowly start making other changes.

Now he likes BPC in the morning…

(joseph) #141

Mikhaila Peterson and Paul Saladino also.

(bulkbiker) #142

You might the videos on @amber 's you tube page from Carnivore conference interesting too

#143

Can tinnitus be regarded as an “-itis”?

(Elizabeth ) #144

16 months carnivore here after 2 years of strict keto. Knowing what I know now, I think that so many of what carnivores described as adaptation symptoms may possibly be related to oxalate dumping. If I had to do it all over again knowing what I know now, I would probably have taken 6 months to slowly reduce my oxalates before going full carnivore. Don’t get me wrong, I was starving on keto and I can see carnivore or something close being my final landing place.

(Kirk Wolak) #145

Yes it can. Don’t remember the exact podcast, but one person with like 10yrs of tinnitus reported even his doctor was shocked it went away with his dietary changes. Although his doctor was not attributing it to that…

Just FYI, I got an immediately improvement in my psoriasis (stopped bleeding) when I cut nightshades (tomatoes, especially). But after that, it SLOWLY got better as I got healthier and the longer I went. I would say it was 80% cleared in a few MONTHS, and by the 6 month mark was 90% and now is undetectable.

So evaluate yourself FIRST as to how bad it is, scale of 1…5 type of thing. And track the progress daily. I believe it will reduce before it goes away.

I’ve had itchy ears (candida overgrowth, for sure) and that is 99% gone, and I have far far less ear drainage… Still some. But I still eat things I am finding out I should not!

I would say it’s worth a try, and again, at least 28 days.

Let us know how it goes!

#146

I have been carnivore for approx 14months and have just discovered that my Ferritin level has gone up massively in the past 3 months. I have a vitB12 deficiency and go to doc every 3 months for injections. My doc is not in favour of keto diet and I only told her I was carnivore when I discovered I had VitB12 issue. I get blood tests done every time I go to see her to prove that carnivore is a healthy diet!
3 months ago my ferritin was approx 300, now it is above 600. I eat beef, pork, lamb, duck, salmon, trout, sardines, eggs, occasionally chicken and liver. I drink still and sparkling water, no dairy, no tea/coffee, no alcohol, non smoker. I have done occasional fasting, just finished a 100hr fast the day before my last blood test.
I am due to have hemochromatosis test later on this week but my doc is blaming the carnivore diet :frowning:

I was diagnosed with T2D in March 2018 but got my hba1c down to normal using keto diet before changing to carnivore.

#147
(Elizabeth ) #148

It could be a methylation issue, you might need to take a methylated supplement

#149

I tested negative for hemochromatosis. I listened to the full interview with PD Manganese and also read the book. One of his suggestions for decreasing ferritin levels is to donate blood. I have already made one donation - I will get my ferritin level checked again in a couple of months. I am continuing with the carnivore diet as this is the best diet for me (despite the high iron) and will donate blood every 3 months.

(Robert C) #150

Hi @dexter,

I too got into the mid-700’s in ferritin and I too tested negative for hemochromatosis. I dabbled in Carnivore but I think the level rose mostly due to the higher meat intake in the long term just from plain old Keto.

According to the podcast, ferritin under 100 is the sweet spot for health. Going Carnivore to “top up” your iron levels to 300 or 400 and depending on quarterly blood donations to get you back down to 200 or 300 sounds risky (I’m just guessing at what your numbers will be given Carnivore and the history of slow iron excretion). Phlebotomy (if you can get it) might be better as it might get you below 100 once in a while but, the continual intake of iron will require it forever - and doctors and insurance might not like the (expensive) “forever” plan (i.e. obviously Carnivore might not be a good lifestyle choice for someone with an iron overload tendency - which only gets worse with age).

Based on this post I ordered the book “Dumping Iron” (thanks @FrankoBear) hoping to find a trick or two outside of bloodletting. Unfortunately, I cannot donate blood because I lived in the UK in the early 90’s. If I cannot do it through diet, I’ll have to pressure my doctor for phlebotomy. I have made it from over 700 down to under 400 so far.

Changes I’ve made:

  • Lots more eggs as a protein source (lots of 3-egg scrambles - sometimes adding meat, sometimes adding avocado)
  • Pork and chicken instead of beef (I always thought grassfed beef was awesome but found it to be too full of highly available iron - now it is very once-in-a-while with milk only)
  • Dropped liver
  • Drink 10 ounces of milk with meals with meat (calcium reduces absorption of iron)
  • Add cheese (same - calcium reduces absorption - used along with milk just to bump up total calcium - it seems that a smaller dose of calcium with a meal with meat doesn’t make much of a difference)
  • Avoid multi-vitamins (which contain vitamin C) and alcohol - both of which enhance iron absorption
  • I’m trying Lactoferrin (apolactoferrin)

If you know of some other tricks (not mentioned in “Dumping Iron”) or useful links it would be great if you’d share.

(Robert C) #151

@dexter and @FrankoBear…
Chris Kresser mentions Lactoferrin in this video:

(Katie) #152

For many poeple carnivore would be an ideal starting point. Besides what others have commented about the adjustment being too big for people to handle after a lifetime of eating SAD, there is a concern for oxalate dumping for some people.

(Robert C) #153

This is a very general statement and, per the posts above, post menopausal women and older men should know their iron status before starting Carnivore. Older men are especially prone to fall for the argument that we need extra protein to avoid muscle loss as we age. While true, it doesn’t mean you want to do it through the most iron rich foods you can buy.

Iron overload does not really have any telltale symptoms and our iron excretion rate goes down as we age. Yes, Carnivore can help some people in real trouble - especially with something like an autoimmune disorder but, Carnivore for an otherwise healthy person is not a zero-risk diet option. And how you do it is important too. One may add vitamin C supplements to a Carnivore diet thinking they are missing it from fruits and it cannot hurt - actually it increases iron absorption is a really bad thing to do if your ferritin is high.

If your ferritin is already in the 200s or 300s you can move yourself above 700 (see @dexter above) and into needing therapeutic phlebotomys in just a few months of Ribeye steaks. The scary thing is that for a long time at the beginning of Carnivore you might feel better, clearer, lose weight etc. all while giving yourself a real hard-to-deal-with health problem.