Should carnivore be the starting point?


(Carol) #21

I think it would be useful to ask a potential newbie what would be more difficult to give up - meat or vegetables and go from there. Because I’m big on salads and could care less about meat, poultry etc., carnivore would have been a punishment for me.

When people ask me what I eat now, I tell them I keep it simple with meat, poultry, eggs etc. with some veggies/salads thrown in. I don’t try to make keto breads, desserts or fat bombs etc. Some place down the road maybe. So that keeps things pretty easy. And a lot of people get big eyes when I tell them I can have mayo for things like tuna/chicken/egg salads. Easy. Choose your method for success. :smile:


(Chris - carnivoremuscle.com) #22

Are rdas actually based in legit science or expert consensus?


#23

To say nothing of bioavailability. That tub of spinach could tell you you’re getting 56% RDA of Vitamin A per cup, but are you tho?


(Full Metal Keto) #24

I think for almost everyone ketogenic eating requires a leap of faith. It’s completely in the face of the way we were all taught was a healthy way to eat. Going carnivore right off could work for some but I would have had a hard time making that extreme of a change right off due to keto being a new concept for me. I have considered giving carnivore a trial period to see if it gives me a bump towards losing weight faster but I keep putting it off.

I just two weeks ago started using Cronometer after 5 months of lazy keto only to find that even with all the low carb vegetables that I have in my diet I am still under 15 net carbs most days, rarely go over 20 and likely was carb compliant during my lazy keto period. What I do tend to go over on is fats, sometimes as much as 150% of my intended fat macro. And protein can be way over the top for me sometimes, as much as 150% or as low as 65%. I am trying to plan more carefully now as an experiment to see if staying stricter with my overall macros helps me lose further. Carnivore is still a possible option for me to have if things aren’t working well.


(Judith) #25

Magnesium is the answer to constipation. I use Remag and it’s great.


(Judith) #26

I also wish I had known about carnivore being a WOE - it would have been easier for me.


(Chris - carnivoremuscle.com) #27

Proper carnivore protocol is the answer to magnesium imbalance. There shouldn’t be a need to supplement. Eat 2:1 fat:lean and avoid anything not on 4 legs, and all dairy. Simple and easy.


No Need To Supplement
(Robert C) #28

That brings up a good point - is Carnivore a WOE?

Is Vegan a WOE?

I see Keto as a way of eating because it is result based - however you do it, stay in ketosis (we have a sort of formula from 2KD but there are many ways to stay in ketosis).

I see Carnivore, Vegan etc. as diets (not a WOE) because they specify WHAT to eat and not eat.

And, they can be good hard-core elimination diets that help people straighten out their lives but, not necessarily forever.

Think of it this way - there are three islands you can live on - one has only plant based food, one has only meat and one has any kind of food you want (with one caveat - falling out of ketosis means the death penalty but you have a monitor telling you whenever you are close).

Which island would you pick? Wouldn’t you worry that the diet based islands of Carnivore or Vegan might present you with some really bad chronic problems after several months or a few years?

We have several famous people that got a lot better on Carnivore but that doesn’t mean generally healthy overweight people will get some great responses without any health cost.

We also have Shawn Baker doing great on Carnivore (and selling a book) - do you really want to compare yourself to a huge man - one solid muscle - breaking performance records and working out constantly? Why would his Carnivore results and blood numbers have anything to do with a middle aged person with an extra 50 to 100 pounds of body fat and, up until starting Keto, was steering straight toward a heart attack?


#29

Veganism is first and foremost an ideology, not a diet, the diet came after as the justification for the ideology.

Carnivore is an extreme elimination diet, the ultimate anti-inflammation diet. It would be difficult to keep up long-term, I’ve not gotten into this without knowing that. But unlike Veganism, Carnivore doesn’t lack essential nutrients necessary to keep people healthy. I’ve yet to meet an emaciated Carnie, and the only case of scurvy I’ve heard about was the result of someone knowingly half-assing it.

Keto might be more practical in the long-term, but many people would probably benefit doing periodic Carnivore while on it.


(charlie3) #30

I guess I have to repeat something over and over. I didn’t start this thread to talk about whether carnivory is a viable life long practice, may be it is, may be not. I don’t know the answer to that. What I posed is, would starting on carnivore have some advantages for at least some people. Consider that Dr Westman’s page 4 calls for only 2 cups per day of carby foods. It’s nearly a carnivor diet and nobody thinks it’s radical.

I’ve got an old friend with a big gut that he dearly wants to get rid of. I’m going to encourage him to focus on animal foods, preferably exclusively. He lives alone and can afford to eat the best of everything if he chooses. He’ll be my guinea pig.


(Robert C) #31

For people that want few choices to think about and/or are “all or nothing” people I think it could be great (if they happen to love meat). It is their next decision that counts:

  1. Go back to their old way of eating after a while on Carnivore (they know nothing else) - back comes the weight
  2. Go to Keto after Carnivore - probably an easy, incremental transition
  3. Stay with Carnivore - get your blood checked (especially for iron overload)

(charlie3) #32

RobC, as far as I can tell about the only reason to eat veggies, besides liking them, is for micronutrients. One of the things I’m learning doing carnivore is which ones might be to high or too low and how to deal with that. I’d like more control of the protein percent to see if lower is better. I’ll figure out a way to do that too.

On an individual basis, if someone gets freaked out about eating only animal foods they can rush to the nearest grocery store for some emergency brocli and eat it in the parking lot on the way back to their car.


(Laurie) #33

This is a good point. I was raised on mountains of unseasoned meat and potatoes, with a tablespoon or so of canned peas or corn on the side. I trained as a cook. So I know how to eat and cook meat (and I dislike potatoes).

I know that not everyone has such a background. I’ve known families who ate mostly pasta, or casseroles, or wieners and canned beans. When I lived in Mexico, some of the food was so complicated I couldn’t tell what I was eating (e.g., two small lumps of something in a sauce named after a color).

But sometimes I forget. I’m still surprised when a newcomer asks how to cook a pork chop, or says, “I bought some ground beef; now what do I do with it?” Such people might indeed do better easing into keto with salads, cauliflower “rice,” etc.


(It's all about the bacon, baby) #34

The challenge is getting through to the carb addicts. Addiction can be beaten, but it requires certain tricky psychological changes that are difficult to engender. People aren’t usually willing to give up their substance of choice until they have hit rock bottom—and not always, even then. The kind of surrender to reality that permits an addict to give up his or her substance of choice is not usually within human power to arrange.

That said, complete abstinence is usually more manageable than trying to consume the substance “in moderation.”


(Justin S) #35

This thread makes me realize that I need to start taking carnivore more seriously. Does anyone have good sources on YouTube?

I’ve seen Dr. Berry do some videos on other people’s channels regarding it, but I have long considered it to be fringe in the same vein of paleo. Little true science backing, mostly anecdotal. But within the past week, I’ve seen a few things that have pushed me to rethink that assumption, including this thread.

I have been eating more carnivorously the past week or two, but mostly for the convenience. Keeping and cooking loads of veggies every single day is just such a beating. Meat is so quick and easy, and the freezer is your friend. So far, I actually do feel better than when I was eating more veg, after a few days of adjustment.

I just don’t know enough about it compared to my knowledge of keto. Any good sources to check out would be much appreciated.


(Chris - carnivoremuscle.com) #36

Look up videos by Frank Tufano, interviews with Amber O’hearn, Dr. Shawn Baker, Dr. Georgia Ede for starters.


(Chris - carnivoremuscle.com) #37

Show me the science dude. Blood markers which are held up on a high altar, as well as RDAs, are based on the same type of study that the new EAT Lancet report is; expert consensus. It’s foggy at best, and detrimental at worst. You can have picture-perfect bloodwork and yet still suffer from a variety of health problems and generally feel like shit. Yes, on keto, too.

Certainly, the new stuff on cholesterol that @DaveKeto is doing is pretty groundbreaking but even he admits it’s not definitive yet and should not be taken as gospel.

Not to mention these “celebs” you’re mentioning have done this for 10-20 years (excluding Baker, I’ll get to him). This is a HELL of a lot longer than 99% of users on this forum have been doing anything remotely resembling keto.

Now on to Baker. Yeah, he’s selling a book, t-shirts, and his training program. But let’s break that down. If you watch his videos (which I barely do anymore), he gives the information away freely, and at least to date has been self-funded as he was not practicing medicine. His training system is geared toward rowing. Myself and everyone I know gives two poops about being better at rowing. If I was to at any point, buy his book, it would be as a thanks for the two years of freebies, as would be the case if I was to buy a mug from @carl and @richard.

Lastly, sure it’s an “elimination diet” whatever that is, but you seem to simply dismiss that it’s a way of eating for life simply because of that. How long have you experimented with carnivore?


(Janelle) #38

I’ll never be carnivore - it’s just not how I personally want to live my life.

Do those of you who are, supplement? I kind of know what’s in meat. It’s certainly not all of the nutrients I’ve been led to believe that humans need. What’s the thinking on this?


(Chris - carnivoremuscle.com) #39

If you’re up for it, here’s a long watch. TL;DR - the RDAs we currently accept as gospel are not based in science, and by eating a 2:1 ratio of fat to lean and excluding all plant foods (including “healthy oils”), your body can synthesize what it needs. Some organs can be eaten but it’s not like you need to be shoveling liver down your throat daily.

This clinician WILL recommend a high starting dose of vitamin D at first just to help remove the deficiency we usually have but not much else aside from that. Magnesium, etc, will self-synthesize if you’re not sapping your nutrients out of the body with plant toxins.


(It's all about the bacon, baby) #40

There are scholarly lectures by Amber O’Hearn and lighter (but still well-documented) ones by Georgia Ede. Dr. Berry is up on the latest research, but his videos are pegged at a more popular level.

The YouTube channels I find most helpful are Low Carb Down Under, which does various events in Australia and Colorado; Ancestral Health, which does an annual symposium with heavyweight speakers; and I just discovered JumpStartMD, which has some very good presentations from a conference they organized last year (I am trying to get organized to post a thread about this conference.)

Now, none of these channels are specifically carnivore, but they do have a lot of useful information, in any case. The Dudes and Daisy Brackenhall have interviewed various people, especially Amber, on the topic of ZC/carnivore, so a little rummaging around is required, but again, will turn up highly useful information.

If you can come across a copy, The Fat of the Land is an interesting account by the Canadian-American explorer and anthropologist, Vilhjalmur Stefansson, of his travels among the Inuit in the Canadian Arctic. He and a colleague, Karsten Andersen, were put on a meat-only diet for a year, in a famous experiment run at Bellevue Hospital in New York in 1927. The papers from this experiment are available online and make fascinating reading. Granted, it was N = 2, but it supported Stefansson’s assertions about the Inuit diet and silenced critics who believed that scurvy was an inevitable result of a meat-only diet.