Should carnivore be the starting point?

[OldDoug]

I think reducing chronic inflammation in general boosts the ability of the immune system to fight off pathogenic or cancerous cells.

Was going to say the same thing - with regards to Chris having fewer colds and for shorter duration. It makes perfect sense on an ‘intuitive’ level - the body’s defenses are not spread so thin, they can better concentrate on the matter at hand, etc.

[OldDoug]

Why not suggest carnivore as a starting point, a 30 day elimination diet? Advise stocking the fridge with meat, seafood, eggs, cheese, and heavy cream and only eat those for 30 days to jump start fat burning and ketosis.

I think there is a lot to be said for this. A faster start, yes, but (as others have said) perhaps less sustainable for some - they need to get over the hump of any “keto flu” and cravings for what they used to eat - they need to go long enough to get positive reinforcement from body changes.

On the other hand, anything they do - carbohydrate reduction, cutting out snacking, eating less often, fewer meals, fasting - is likely going to bring good results as well.

If there is a built-in advantage for carnivore, beyond the hardcore carb reduction, I think it’s that the food tends to be very satisfying for a lot of people.

[charlie3]

On the other hand, anything they do - carbohydrate reduction, cutting out snacking, eating less often, fewer meals, fasting - is likely going to bring good results as well.

If there is a built-in advantage for carnivore, beyond the hardcore carb reduction, I think it’s that the food tends to be very satisfying for a lot of people.

Two weeks into carnivore I’m loviing the food but I’m ravenously hungry, eating too much, and looking forward to that magical self regulating satiety that’s promised by some. I agree with you that a substantial part of the benefit is not from the foods we are eating but the (so-called) foods that are eliminated.

Carnivore is not so radical. Consider Dr. Westman’s page 4 of allowed foods. The only thing between hiis version of Keto and carnivore is 3 cups of leafy greens. Their contribution to micro nutrients is going to be trivial. How disruptive can it be to eliminate them?

The vegetable pushers uses weasal words. Vegetables are a “good source” of what ever. What does that mean? Not much. Until two weeks ago I was eating a dinner salad with probably 15 servings of veggies 6 days a week. They made contributions to the rda’s for micro nutrients but didn’t get the job done according to Cronometer. So the fall back position is, you need the fiber. Really? Where’s the science? The primary thing I miss about the big salad is it filled me up better than animal foods.

Another favorite of the plant pushers is to talk about protein as though it’s some sort of low grade toxin and if we eat just a little too much bad things will happen. Science please.

II have a hunch, just a hunch, that eating “too much” protein is either harmless most of the time or has has some unobvious benefits not related to protein synthsis. Otherwise It’s hard to explaiin Shawn Baker’s success at the indoor rowing world championship after more than a year eating carnivore.

P.S. I recall a YT video where Ben Bickman seems to say the body processes protein better in the absense of carbs. I forget the details.

[Karim_Wassef]

Remember that most satiety comes from fat, not protein. Protein is more satisfying that carbs but it can also work against you in excess. At least it did for me.

[charlie3]

The eating discipline that worked so well for me for a year has degraded substantially since starting carnivore two weeks ago. I’ll be patient.

How much protein was excess in your experience? What were the negative effects?

I’d like my protein intake to be lower. Reducing protein and increasing fat is more challenging with carnivore because the two are usually comingled. So I’m having my butcher make 60-70% lean ground chuck instead of the typical 80%. I take the fat that drains out in cooking and pour it back on the meat. A bonus, the extra fat improves the flavor of the meat.

[Karim_Wassef]

I still target 75% fat. Eating too much protein makes me hungry again.
Strict carni can be hard, but dairy helps.

I created a table of high fat carnivore foods - here’s my priority:

1. cured ham
2. lamb
3. bacon
4. sour cream
5. duck
6. cream cheese
7. goose liver pate
8. ground beef (highest fat%)
9. frankfurter and brotwurst
10. feed ribs
11. sausage (beef, pork)
12. egg yolk
13. mackerel
14. mortadella
15. blue cheese
16. prime rib
17. mozzarella
18. ribeye
19. chicken thighs with skin
20. beef and lamb brain
21. lamp chops
22. sardines
23. salmon
24. parmesan cheese
25. eggs

I used https://nutritiondata.self.com and ranked by fat% to get there… a little obsessive but it worked for me.

[MTullius]

Given all of that, I can see Carnivore doing better than Vegan in terms of the 10-year percentage still happy and healthy on the diet but, can’t be sure without the data (number of people that drop out and why).

I think what is missing in a lot of this discussion is that carnivore, as a sub-genre of keto and low carb, for a lot of people is a therapeutic step in reaching some goal or discovering food tolerances. Doing 100% carni for a month or three or even a year is enough time to lose weight, break a keto stall, discover that dairy or some veggies keep you back (that’s why for most it is not THE starting point to transition out of SAD). The 10 year or lifetime prognosis for any WOE that falls within the keto genre is good only if the WOE results in healthy body composition and good health that can be maintained. Theoretical debates about the demerits of eating any spinach or dairy seem silly to me, unless spinach or dairy etc. make you sick or cause autoimmune issues.

[Elizedge]

Dairy makes many people sick, often is implicated in weight gain and spinach is loaded with oxalates You should check Sally Norton’s research and her information and you probably will never eat spinach again. There are low oxalate greens and vegetables but you have to know what you’re looking for. I’m carnivore almost a year and a half and it may take 10 years to dump all the oxalates I have acquired in 60 years

[Elizedge]

People actually studying carnivore have found that even over 300 g of protein a day does not seem to be exhausted. But we all have to find what works for us.

[MTullius]

People actually studying carnivore have found that even over 300 g of protein a day does not seem to be exhausted.

what do you mean “be exhausted”?

[Elizedge]

Voice texting and did not double check That should be excessive

[Kage]

Trying to make Carnivore the induction phase for Keto means skipping all of the learning you need to undertake to handle Keto properly

Yes, this. I’ve only been at this coming up on four months now, but if I had cut my diet down to such a small handful of food options, I would not have learned nearly as much. (I also suspect I would not have felt very well the first month.) I track my foods every day, but I am getting to the point where I know what the counts are going to be simply because I have had to research everything I put on my plate. It’s been extremely valuable knowledge that has set a foundation that will help me keep going.

Also, I just like veggies! Broc dipped in guac, kale salad, cauliflower? Yes please. It is a wonderful texture change from meats and eggs.

[SlowBurnMary]

As far as starting points go, a counterpoint.

If I would’ve known that MCT/coconut oil is great for ketogenesis and thus taming insulin (and grain brain) in the presence of carbs I would’ve loved to have instituted a coconut-oil centered way of eating the whole grain carbs I was eating at the time, as a pre-induction/induction. Eliminating all grains except those eaten with an abundance of coconut oil (or MCT oil, less abundantly) could be perhaps more conducive to newbies, on top of cutting out sugar.

Then again, it probably would’ve prolonged my grain eating, and I doubt I would’ve made the progress I’ve made?

I’m extremely happy with my LCHF/keto results - it’s just good to know this coconut oil angle as an option for, say, a special holiday meal, etc. I’ve just recently encountered Masterjohn PhD’s biochemistry lesson on it.

He compares beta-hydroxybutyrate from MCT vs. 10% carb vs. classical (epileptic) ketogenic diet.

Presumably one could use good doses of coconut oil as the exclusive fat on all whole foods carbs and mitigate the insulinogenic effect - which would be a helpful starting point for folks who are already situated in whole foods?

[Karim_Wassef]

Then use MCT oil with carnivore?

Carnivore is simpler, less thinking and counting… go to a restaurant, you can just order the meat parts… family feasts… work lunches… it’s just easier to say no to plants and get into keto much faster.

learning takes time and effort - carnivore is just fast results and then learn slowly as needed.

simple question - is it an animal? no - then move on… and then over time, make exceptions as you learn more.

[SlowBurnMary]

Not for me - I eat on the low side of protein (40-60gr/day) as I really prefer the foodie delights of spice perfumed fatty veg sautes and dairy.

I like thinking, and spiced plants - so, it made my keto induction easy as it was centered on mostly homemade indian and italian/french cuisine.

However, if I were to live the polar regions, or in a disaster survival setting, I’d be very grateful for raw and barbequed wild game - as well as crunchy crickets.

[Karim_Wassef]

you can be low protein on carnivore

I actually worked out a list of high fat, low protein foods to help in the beginning:

I didn’t use it as a go/no-go list, but more as a menu that I could go seek…

The units are in grams.

top of the list has the least protein % (p%) in grams/total grams and goes from 8% to 65%.

I could have done it by calories since fat is 9cal/g vs. carb or protein at 4cal/g but you can get that by multiplying by 0.5 or 0.6 … so if it’s 12% protein in grams (and low carb), then it’s 6% protein in calories.

That tends of drift a little to 0.7 but it’s roughly correct.

oh and f% is fat% … and (f+f)% is fat+fiber %… this is because I consider fiber to be fat-making in the gut… it’s my weird measure, but I like it.

[FrankoBear]

There’s really no benefit over sea salt or Real salt or any of the other ancient saltbed salts, aside from that and taste.

If you don’t want to ingest too many micro plastics, mined salt is better than sea salt.

[FrankoBear]

Why not suggest carnivore as a starting point, a 30 day elimination diet?

It’s a good idea. And as some have commented, with 20:20 hindsight, they may have wished they had started their n=1 nutritional lifestyle like that.

I love that @RobC played the Devil’s avocado and suggested why not go vegan paleo for 30 days to start.

The other starting point to consider is an extended fast for 30 days. It is an elimination diet.

The key point being that the start period is to start. Start something. Change.

So to follow that linear logic why not start the way of eating in a manner how you intend to continue it.

Any of these time-limited start trials have the in-built failing of that time limit with its implied “you can go back to normal after you give it a try” message.

For me, I think the starting point for better nutrition should be waking up to the fact that you are your own health crisis. Once you have clearly determined that your health could be better, or you will die soon, then we have an unassailable starting point for change.

[SlowBurnMary]

I was just being chatty, I should have been clearer: I love diverse spicy fatty veg But thank you for that great chart!

[MTullius]

mined salt is better than sea salt.

this is true