Sept. 2022 Maintenance

(Central Florida Bob ) #21

Here we are 12 days into the month and I haven’t said “hi” yet. Hi!

Absolutely the same. I’ve been having a stressful year, first with my dear cat having medical issues and then me having them. (I seriously doubt he gets stressed over his or my medical issues. I should learn from my cat.) I’ve had about two nights of good sleep since March. More weird arrhythmia issues including making me quit a bike ride. Just a bunch o’crap.

I haven’t tracked my weight as carefully, and since I thought the fasting was tied to the arrhythmia stuff, I knocked off my weekly maintenance 40 hour fasts every week, trying OMAD days instead of my regular TMAD (two). What I see is that I gained close to 9 pounds since January. That works out to a little over 4 ounces per week. When dealing with a measurement system that has a tolerance of about 2 pounds on a measurement, that’s pretty hard to see. The only way to know it’s there is to track it over time, when it turns to a couple of pounds.

If you follow the idea that one pound is 3500 calories (which I don’t think there’s much evidence for) 4 ounces/week works out to about an extra 125 calories per day.

So now I’m in puzzle I don’t see how to solve. I want to drop the weight, but since I’ve never kept detailed records of what I eat, and “real food” doesn’t necessarily match any particular nutrient profile, I figure I need to cut back something, but don’t see how to define that. I had a chicken thigh for lunch with one ounce of almonds (yeah, I measure those). How much thigh meat was that? Didn’t weigh it. How much skin vs muscle? Same answer.

Any advice @collaroygal or anybody?

#22

Oh don’t go there, I am tracking a lot and try to do it properly (totally impossible in some cases but it’s still more accurate than guessing. I can’t guess at all) and it’s not really a good way to live (well it provides me fun numbers and inspires experiments so we have that)… And it may or may not help anyway.

I personally go with OMAD and being more careful about what I eat as I know how my satiation works and that should go into the right directions… I have my tracking too but that just the curiosity part, counting never helped me to eat better, at least not directly, I learned a few things from it and trained myself to eat better.

Tomorrow I will eat chicken thigh myself. Unreliable stuff, I can’t even measure the bone originally, just afterwards. And the skin, yeah… And mine will have some piece of the back… But what matters is that it’s not satiating to me so I combine it with other items, eat once (if I can) and it should be right. I will use all my knowledge and determination to maximize satiation per energy in the foreseeable future, that’s my method. I focus on protein as that affects my satiation the most (surely fat is needed too but I am physically unable to eat low-fat so going too low with it is no concern. overeating fat is always a concern with me).

Of course, it’s probably good to try to solve the other problems, stress, sleep and the like but it’s obviously not that easy most of the time…
And some of us should focus on exercise too. I need that anyway so it’s not an extra thing for me.

(Central Florida Bob ) #23

Chicken thigh is better than chicken breasts. Especially skinless, boneless chicken breasts, which are the worst cut of meat on the planet.

Seriously, I get where you’re coming from. I’ve personally never had much luck with OMAD as a way to lose weight, and I’ve counted calories enough times to think it’s an incredible waste of time. It’s getting hard to think of what to just avoid. We spare dairy, pretty much, mostly as hard cheeses and HWC. I eat the almonds and macadamia nuts, she won’t touch them. I usually have one ounce a day of either kind of nut. All in all, I’m pretty much always under 30g carb, and regularly under 20.

#24

Sadly, I dislike chicken breast - but it is too expensive and not satiating anyway. To me. And super dry, I wouldn’t touch them without serious need and a bunch of flavorful sauce! It is edible when done right. Not good but edible. My SO loves it. No discussion about who gets that part :smiley:

I should eat leaner (most of my struggles are connected to wondering how on earth could I eat little enough if my food has a too high fat/protein ratio even after minimizing fat as much as I can and use the biggest possible focus on leaner meat?) but I like fatty meat. Oh well :smiley: I will figure it out. I started to fancy fish lately, that should help. We have very little variety and most of that is too expensive but I have some great spice mixes…

I am sure OMAD will help me but I have no idea what could help you if it doesn’t… Some little nuts shouldn’t be a problem… Or who knows, maybe tiny things add up? I can’t possibly know.
But good luck to figure it out - or just lose fat without that…

(KCKO, KCFO) #25

I am trying a timed window protocol currently. It is really different than my normal way of eating. I had never been much for breakfasts and they are now a major part of my eating pattern. I do breakfast around 9 and stop eating anything after 3 pm. I have been doing this for about a week and dropped 3 lbs. so far. Early days, so not sure how I will go from here on out. I have also cut down on my chicken consumption, because of the Omega6 issue with them.

I had been having issues with full on fasting, just couldn’t do it for more than 24-30 hrs. at a time, so did some reading and decided to give this a try.

I take pictures of what I eat instead of journaling them. I do not believe the "calories in calories out "and “a calorie is a calorie” lines of thinking anymore. Stopped that when I was doing serious fasting. When I feast between my fasts I could eat any keto type meal, as large as I wanted and lost the weight. I also don’t believe that a calorie of sugar does the same thing in my body as a calorie from salmon.

(Robin) #26

So well said. Thanks.

#27

You might try what Amber O’Hearn talks about on myzerocarblife’s youtube channel this week: a bunch of stalled carnivores are doing 3-4 meals a day, never more than 40 (men) or 30 (women) grams of protein per meal. They’re having good luck with it. Year-long stalls have been broken.

Fasting lowers BMR, so every time you fast, you lose a few points, so if you do it weekly for a year, that’s going to remove the calories you burn at rest by possibly 150-250, and probably permanently. There are papers on this (and on ketogenic low-calorie diets lowering BMR) at NIH where you can run a search (RMR is the same as BMR, and sometimes it’s about “thermogenesis”) and read full text. Whether lowering of the BMR is permanent isn’t known yet, but 15 years out, yes. And in the case of The Biggest Loser “winners,” six years out, their BMR was still dropping even if they weren’t still restricting calories.

(This is why I, personally, only look at calories to keep them up. I’m not convinced by the “rules” about calorie restriction either–too much data refutes it, the Vermont Prison study being my favorite, but there isn’t a study that shows no metabolism loss from fasting or lowering calories. After a lot of reading on it, I decided 1500 calories/day for women is the minimum and 1800 for men to protect what BMR you have left after failed low-calorie diets. Less poses a real risk.)

(Central Florida Bob ) #28

@Keto_Lou, sorry it took so long to answer this, but thanks for the info. Carnivore at 40 grams/day of protein sounds low in calories, so I need to follow up and go watch some of her videos. I found “Why Some People Don’t Improve On Carnivore: AND HOW TO FIX IT” with Amber O’Hearn dated 9/9, so I assume that’s the one you recommended.

There are paragraphs I could write about my experiences with trying to get to my goal weight for a couple of years and pretty much giving up when I couldn’t get there after around six months of alternate day fasts or extended (three day) fasts. This was (pretty much by coincidence) from May to November in '20 and '21. Getting cold in August here in Florida is ordinarily a very expensive proposition. With fasting, I didn’t have to turn the air conditioner down. I’d get cold without the cost of A/C or food. :smiley:

I have a surgery coming up, most likely around the end of October/early November and the prep sheets they gave me describe a pre-surgery diet that ends up being a protein-sparing modified fast for one week. I told the Physician’s Assistant that I was rather used to fasting and I could just fast the whole time and she reiterated to follow their diet. It made me think of doing a PSMF as part of experimenting.

I have a “minor” outpatient procedure tomorrow, so I’ll probably be late to comment.

#29

I would rather stay fat or fast than eating 30-40g protein per MEAL (well it depends on the definition… are 30 min breaks between meals are fine?)… So crazy. Certain super restrictive diets are scary and plain impossible to me, I need my 120+ g protein, I am unable to stay below, apparently. Whenever I try, I inevitably fail. Exceptions are super rare. Yesterday I tracked 216g protein but it doesn’t mean I can pull it off with only 100 today. Quite tiresome when I only have fatty meat. I probably don’t need all the fat I eat but I do need the protein and my fat grams are almost always higher… If I eat just enough not to get hungry again, my protein ends up close to 120g on most days while my fat intake is in a way bigger range. It’s interesting how awesome the tracking of my body is. My mind is completely clueless about how much I ate but my body notices the required 120g is up and stops giving me hunger urges. Usually. Sometimes it misses meat or eggs too much, I shouldn’t neglect either, apparently.

I try to go back to OMAD now (I had an Nearly Insatiable Day so my OMAD disappeared. I don’t eat 216g protein and way more fat in one sitting, I have my limits), using the leanest meats possible and we will see. Experimenting is fun. I never could try out low-fat for longer than one day as I just can’t find food that suits those experiments. IDK what low-fat is but I call it when I consume only 80g fat. It happens sometimes, I can pull it off with very low carbs.

#30

A rather horrible typo on my part! yes, 30-40 per meal, so 120-160 per day. Sorry 'bout that! Good for you for being able to eat that much protein! I’m usually stuffed on 125 grams per day. I don’t want to drop below 100 g ever and not just because that’s the level at which my hair starts to fall out. :slight_smile:

#31

Oh! Considering what I saw in my life, I could imagine it’s per day… Okay, it’s better this way :slight_smile: Still impossible to me.

It’s very BAD for me. I overeat every day because of that.
I so want to lower it but I couldn’t this far :cry: I fail every day whenever I try it…

I should give it up but then… I MUST stop eating fatty meats :scream:. Okay, minimizing it, I won’t give them up. I gave up almost all added fat including cream and the like but I have my limits.
My protein/energy need ratio is too high and I dislike lean stuff…

But I will figure it out. Or stay fat forever. I have been stalling (kind of. there were a few very short waves and I have my 5kg immovable stress gain) since 10 years, what is 60-80 more?

Sorry, I try to calm down but it’s a tad frustrating after 10 years of struggling (low-key struggle while trying to enjoy the hell out of my woe, I am a hedonist - but still!).

Yep, me too, usually. Well, kind of satiated, I obviously could eat more… But if it’s one meal, it’s usually good :slight_smile: I do have my 200-250g protein days, they are inevitable sometimes.
I am a short, not very active, not muscular woman so IDK why I need this much but I can’t go lower.

So the total protein may be okay but I can’t eat 30-40g protein for my first meal, I would be hungry like crazy!
I need proper sized meals anyway, not tiny ones.

Yeah, there is a reason I can’t follow most specific diets, my ways are somewhat fixed. I can change a lot but my macros and mealsizes have their rules and I can’t go against them.
It’s interesting to me that so many other people can… But maybe only people who normally eat small meals do such things to begin with. Or desperate ones. Or people with different priorities. My SO has no problem with losing fat, I mean, he does it smoothly and quickly on HCHF eating sweet desserts every day - he just suffers hunger. He does that anyway, it’s just longer when it’s for fat-loss and not maintenance (and he needs his substantial exercise not to have it worse). I would NEVER do that for mere fat-loss but I can give up sweet things for weeks and go super low with carbs while he can’t even try some mere low-carb for a day (it probably wouldn’t work for him anyway).

(Central Florida Bob ) #32

Actually, you were right. Your original post said per meal and I’m the one who turned it into per day, so it’s my fault.

My apologies.

#33

No, my fault entirely, but thanks for the apology I didn’t deserve. I saw your answer and went “ack!” and re-read my post and edited it to fix my error, so it isn’t sitting there being wrong if others read it. I did typo it (a friend calls those errors “Brain-o” not “typo” because the error was in recall, not actual typing!) 40 per meal is what this guy https://www.youtube.com/user/MrSnuffles04 is doing (and has a FB group on it this month). I’m interested because I do better with three meals per day, so I’m watching them out of curiosity.

For some people, adding more veg works as a way of permanently staying healthy and lean. Some people add back quit a few carbs eventually. Seems like most people can lose fat and gain health on 20 grams of carbs or fewer per day, lower blood sugar, BP, all that… but stall or reach maintenance, and now there are a couple dozen hacks to try until you find what works for you, personally.

Good luck with your surgery!

(KCKO, KCFO) #34

All the best with the procedure and surgery.

Let us know who the PSMF type protocol they gave you works out for you.

I’m still doing the time restricted eating. So far I am ok with it and the results are good, I drop about .4-.6 lb. per day so far. Hopefully I didn’t just jinx myself.

That was pretty much what happened to me. Lost everything I wanted to in a little under a year. I had easily stayed there for 3 yrs. then Covid-19 hit and I started out bouncing a LOT. Ended up putting on 10 lbs. that just isn’t going away. That is why I am doing timed eating window. So far I am ok with it and the results are good, I drop about .4-.6 lb. per day so far. Hopefully I didn’t just jinx myself.
Just two meals and if I do feel actually hungry during the timed window, I eat a very keto snack.

KCKO folks.

#35

You stopped it at 10 pounds gain. I consider that a victory and am proud of you! Lots of people regain 30 or 60 or 90 before they throw on the brakes again. I regained 2+ sizes last time (though I was eating real food, at least, so my health stayed fine otherwise.) I hope I’m getting smarter as I get older and never do that again. But I know me, and it’s not impossible I will slide too far up in carbs again. If so, I hope I do like you next time and stop it quickly, the instant I have to put the bra on one looser notch!

#36

I always wonder about it. I don’t say I can’t somehow imagine it but when they actually HAVE a method to lose, why don’t they act earlier?

But some people do it SUPER quickly anyway so I guess it’s a bit harder to get determined…?

These things never happens in my family so they are odd to me.
My SO gains quickly when he doesn’t exercise but he is vain and doesn’t let it to be much gain.
His Mom is obese and simply stays so.
I don’t regain or just very little. I never could gain fat quickly.

I start my new experiments tomorrow, I got some leanish meat! :slight_smile:
And it seems I lost some tiny fat with my carnivore-ish escapades… My pants fit me better than they did in the beginning of summer. But they fit me even better last year, hopefully I reach that state soon. These are tiny changes and my weight never changed during this time but I appreciate tiny changes too.

(KCKO, KCFO) #37

Thanks. In my former life I would have gained at least 30-40 lbs in a couple of years,. not 10. I really don’t want to have to go clothes shopping, so I have that for motivation. .

(Central Florida Bob ) #38

It occurred to me I didn’t followup yesterday. I watched the video with Amber O’Hearn and myzerocarblife. I probably need to watch it again because I came away with no real details of what to look at or look for to see if that might help me. I think it was GKI, which I’m not equipped to measure right now.

At this moment in life, I probably couldn’t make the shift to that WOE, but that allows more time for gathering info.

As followup, the minor surgery ended up not being a biopsy. It was essentially an upper GI look with a endoscope while I was knocked out, so aside from all that hassle, everything was good. The specialist looked at the lump the previous surgeon was concerned about and said it was just a lipoma that didn’t need to be biopsied or removed. Onward the next hurdle.

#39

whoot! Glad it was benign and ignorable.

#40

I spent an hour studying some old food records this morning. I have it online back to 2014, though I’ve done a crap-ton(ne) of recording going back to the age of 9 or 10. Had I all that time back, I could have a second PhD, I swear. But this time, I was glad I had done it so that I could study the data. Just went back over the last two times LC–Covid lockdown time and the one before that, 2017. Both times, I ended up where I am right now after the weight-loss phase, in about six months. In 2017, it took about three months of running starts, falling off, starting again, before it took. But once I get past week 3 or so, (sugar addiction is a real thing for me), it’s smooth sailing.

I was fine maintaining at 40 grams of total carbs. I don’t regain, and I don’t spiral out of control. But push me up to 60, and it isn’t that 60 necessarily packs the weight back on, but it can trigger sugar cravings and the 60 becomes 80. I know fruit is part of why I lose control. I suspect 60 g of low carb veg plus root veg wouldn’t, because even this year, I can munch on a baby carrot someone has brought to a potluck or card game, and not want a second, and not want another in a week or a month. Pictures of carrots dancing do not appear in my mind (or beets, or potatoes, or winter squash.) They’re benign to me. (Apples, berries, not so benign.)

I’d never backed up and studied a couple of rounds of LC before to see what happened numbers-wise. And some of it isn’t recorded because I’d do fine, get back to goal size, and quit recording, and keep doing fine for a while, and then something or other would trigger me. (Stressful event, or holiday, probably most of the time.) So I learned something new by looking.

For now, sticking with 5-12 grams per day. But at the six month mark, I’ll edge that up to 15 grams, all with LC veg. Then 20 grams the following month And so on. I am feeling very patient this time, and I’ll be trying to get maintenance right, where I’ve “winged it” in the past. That puts me at 40 grams out at 1 year since I started this round. And I suspect there I should stay, though I’ll have to see.

I pulled out my few smallest t-shirts this morning and they all fit now, including the smallest, my Taylor Guitar shirt I got free when I bought my very nice acoustic-electric guitar. (Which has gone up in value since I bought it–how many things in life do that? Only people, usually.)