Second time in keto


(Doing a Protein Sparing Modified Fast) #1

Hello, I was in this forum some time ago. Keto worked very well for me, I lost many kgs. I ended up with 76kg (I am a 46 year old male, 1.75m height).

Then, covid came, and I stopped visiting my doctor. And I started gaining weight, until I reached 87kg.

I visited my doctor again (covid restrictions are less now) and I have restarted her protocol. Now I am at 82kg, and going down a bit every day.

I eat 5 times per day: lunch and dinner consists of about 200g of vegetables and 150g of fish/meat/eggs, plus olive oil. And three other portions of “powder” (cacao/… from a specific brand, mostly protein).

In a sense, the protocol is “Mediterranean keto”.

What is funny is that I took a blood test the day before I started this protocol again, and my doctor told me that I was in ketosis at that time.

So, this means that despite being in ketosis, I was hungry, and I was eating too much. And it is true: I was not eating sweets or bread or pasta … just vegetables and fish/meat/eggs … But I was all the time hungry, and I was eating too much.

So, I am happy to be going in the right direction again. But I see that things are more complex: I need ketosis, but ketosis by itself is not sufficient. I also have to limit portion size. If I do not control portion size, I end up eating too much, and despite being in ketosis, I gain weight, and I get into the mental mode of wanting to eat at all times.

I hope this time I do it better! (and there is no covid anymore).


#2

I wouldn’t think you nmeed to limit portion size. I would think the opposite - if you are anything like me. Eat way more. 200g vegetables and 150g meat? I would be so hungry! I would starve after 3 times of this, probably…

But you know yourself. Main thing is doesn’t follow some advice not finetuned for you. Find your own way, your sweet spot. I can’t handle tiny meals, they just make me hungry. One big enough? I am perfectly satiated for a day and don’t even get tempted. But the vegetable would interfere in my case too. Or maybe you don’t eat enough fat. I can’t possibly know.

How did you eat the first time when you successfully lost weight? Why don’t start with that now?

Of course ketosis isn’t enough :smiley: It surely never was enough for me, I just ate too much on it. Except close to carnivore. Or on OMAD, maybe. But even that requires me doing it for a long time to see any change (so it’s still hypothetical as I never went that far but it’s my plan). It’s quite individual. Some of us need to stay away from certain items, keto or not.

Good luck!!!


(Doing a Protein Sparing Modified Fast) #3

Thank you for the answer, Shinita!

I tried OMAD, but it does not work for me. I am hungry the whole day. Instead, with 5 times per day, even though portions are somewhat small, I feel satisfied.

I know OMAD works for many people, though. So, in the end, I guess that it is what you say: each person has to find its own way.


(Robin) #4

@Arbre I believe in doing what works for you, and I will cheer you on. I would just tell you that my #1 reason for being strict on keto is the absence of cravings. I think the more you restrict carbs, the less your body AND MIND want. Prior to keto, I was thinking about my next meal, while I was eating. It may have been a few months in, but one day… one weirdly magical day… I was mid-bite and realized I wanted to put down my fork and walk away. Leaving half my meal. I decided to listen and it’s only gotten better and easier over time. And… for the first time in my adult life, I actually have honest-to-god hunger pangs when I need to eat. Not sure I ever truly experienced those before. Sorry for the long ramble. Just wanted to make sure you know that those all day cravings can go away. The old me would not have believed it. But the old me also would not have believed I could give up cigarettes and booze either. Never say never!
Either way, be patient, follow your gut (literally) and you got this!


#5

Yes, I meant that.

Hmmm… Even if 5 meals are your thing (someone I have 5 myself, it varies… but 1-2 is my thing with my big amount per meal usual behavior), maybe some tweak should be done if it’s not good enough. I wrote about multiple things, it’s not all about timing… (Well, if I have 5 meals, I still start to eat around 2-3pm so I should say it’s not all about number of meals, at least :smiley: But the actual food items matter a lot too, of course. I could never be successful with vegetables but others find them helpful. Even choosing our meat well may be important. I would be hungry if I ate chicken - it’s not the fat, fatty chicken and the similarly fatty pork satiates me very differently. Maybe try out slightly different things to see what works best.)


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #6

Yes, what and how much of it you eat matters. Also, keep in mind that eating multiple times per day, even if it’s low/very low carb keeps insulin activated longer during the day which in turn could interfere with ketosis. That said… If you want to eat veggies my suggestion is raw bok choy (or baby bok choy) - you get the biggest nutritional bang for your carb ‘buck’. Tastes pretty good, too. Also, you might want to consider doing overnight 12 hour IF multiple times per week to help offset potential problems eating so many times per day. Best wishes.


(Jane) #7

Same here always thinking of food pre-keto. My magical day was when I looked at the clock, it was 3 pm and I “forgot” to eat lunch. Whaaaaa??? IMPOSSIBLE!!! But it happened and the constant hunger and cravings got less and less over time.

It was such freedom to enjoy food without being ruled by it!


(Rebecca ) #8

This is so well said!!@


(UsedToBeT2D) #9

Welcome back. KCKO.


#10

Ketosis doesn’t mean you won’t be hungry, or that you can’t overeat. Track your intake and figure out what your metabolism will allow you do eat. Work from there. You only mention veggies and meats, your tagline says doing a PSMF, PSMF’s (or coming close) make most people ravenously hungry.


(Butter Withaspoon) #11

Hi Arbre!
It’s absolutely worth getting to that point of being able to eat in response to hunger, and not have to count and worry. A first goal of keto is to burn fat for fuel instead of carbs. Lower your carbs and increase your fat a little until to can feel the change. At that point you may feel that revolutionary moment of fullness when 3/4 the way through a large fatty cut of meat. At that point you may feel like having less meals. Let it happen rather than do OMAD straight off. Limiting to 3 meals a day can be a good start.

Of course if you eat lots and lots of fat your body won’t open the fat cupboard on your belly, but often people have to overcome a fat phobia at first. Eat the fat that comes with protein and you should be right.

Good luck!!


(Butter Withaspoon) #12

If your insulin is still too high over the day, and ramping up your fat burning metabolic machinery has not happened, you will feel a more constant hunger. When you get to the point of 2 or 3 meals a day with enough protein and fat, and with carbs low enough for your particular metabolism, you won’t be plagued with hunger. It’s a great freedom!


#13

You can eat as perfect keto as you want, for many that never happens. For many of us our Hunger/Satiety signals never line up with our metabolism. For me eating to satiety turned into never being hungry, turning into a fasting “pro” and wrecking my metabolic rate over it.


(Butter Withaspoon) #14

I was thinking of you when I mentioned “outliers”. I think that you have a different background than the majority here with more serious pre-diabetic and diabetic and obesity problems? I don’t dismiss your experience at all, but wonder if it’s related to a fit person, building muscle, needing a lot of protein and energy? For someone like that I’d help them to ditch the processed junk food and not suggest keto at all because the restrictions could possibly lead to problematic under eating. It would be a careful gradual approach of reducing carbs to just fresh whole food. Think Zoe Harcombe recommendations.

Just thinking out loud


#15

How so? I used to be a 300lb severely overweight pre-diabetic, now I’m way more lean and muscular sitting at around 10% BF, eating a ton of protein ,and we all need energy. I feel I fit both sides of that. How much you’re eating whether calories or protein is dependent on each persons body composition and ultimate goals. Only thing different about me vs most here is I do CKD/TKD now for the performance and muscle gain boost from it, but I don’t give advise based on that unless I see the person has similar goals.


(Butter Withaspoon) #16

Thanks for filling me in! I didn’t know about the 300lb diabetic part. Interesting that you’ve seen both sides of health, and it sounds like an amazing transformation. Although I’m not a tracker I’m pretty sure 10% body fat is super lean. Congratulations! Assuming you do resistance training (?) the CKD/TKD seems like a great approach. Hopefully not junk food though.

I haven’t researched Cyclic ketogenic or Targeted ketogenic but from the names, it’s probably what I do now. I eat quite a lot of carbs around big exercise days, or sometimes for social or harvesting reasons. I’ll have a very low carb day (maybe every 2 weeks?) to reset my metabolism and make sure my body can deal with making all it’s own glucose. I feel fine.

When I joined the forum I tried stricter keto for a few weeks - it felt great! Some extra mental calm, even and constant energy and my muscles just started growing. I’m lucky I’ve had good hunger and satiety signals all my life so never had to track or count.
Cheers!


(bulkbiker) #17

Because your meals are too small and lacking in fat… your insulin response is being prompted 5 times a day so you get the roller coaster response.


#18

Here’s my two cents…

If you are doing a PSMF for any appreciable time expect to be hungry. If you are spiking your insulin levels multiple times a day (which lean protein will do quite well) then expect to be hungry. Ketosis won’t save you from hunger. I have followed similar protocols and pulled decent ketone numbers despite the massive protein intake; ketones are predicated on an absence of carbohydrate (or total energy in some circumstances) regardless of what some people will say.

I’m not knocking your approach, I think PSMF is effective for fat loss. But it requires an element of ‘just suck it up’ in the same way a standard calorie deficit diet does. This is perhaps why complete fasting is sometimes easier, i.e. due to the rise in counter-regulatory hormones (which Jason Fung is always banging on about).


(Doing a Protein Sparing Modified Fast) #19

With PSMF I am a bit hungry, but much less than in “normal” circumstances.

I do not complain at all about keto. Probably I was not clear: I was much hungrier before than now.


(Robin) #20

Excellent!