Salt, protein, and carbs

(Edith) #21

The gist I’m getting for the benefit of increasing protein or carbs is that insulin is needed to help the body hold on to electrolytes. If insulin stays flat, there is electrolyte wasting. Having insulin increases due to carb or extra protein consumption helps the body hold onto its electrolytes.

Currently at 01:18:00 into the video.

But…. What I’m finding shocking is how before Paul started carbs, he would have poo-pooed any study that was for eight weeks. He used an eight week study about the benefits of honey to support his use of it. He has done more than a 180, he’s done a 540. My head is spinning on how he has changed.

(Old Baconian) #22

I may be reading this wrong, but ketosis is not “due to” gluconeogenesis, the two are independent processes that happen to occur together in the liver when dietary carbohydrate intake is low. They are both stimulated by glucagon and inhibited by insulin.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #23

Some cells lack mitochondria and must have glucose for fuel. As @PaulL noted, gluconeogenesis and ketosis act together to provide sufficient fuel for those cells that lack mitochondria, while providing ample energy in the form of ketones and/or fatty acids for the majority of cells that have them. Eating glucose upsets this balance by changing the glucagon/insulin ratio.

If you’re eating sufficient glucose in the form of carbs - which can vary between individuals but I think is below 100 grams per day of carb intake for everyone - both ketosis and gluconeogenesis will ramp down because there’s too much insulin and too little glucagon. If you’re eating very low carbs, but still too much to enable ketosis, your metabolism will utilize fatty acids - but not efficiently and gluconeogenesis will ramp up.

There’s a limit to how much glucose gluconeogenesis can produce and that limit is reached fairly quickly and cells that require glucose might not get as much as they need. In addition, cells that could otherwise utilize ketones have to get by on less efficient glucose oxidation with more waste production. Gluconeogenesis evolved to provide a small amount of glucose, not run the whole body on it. Folks on low fat and relatively low carb CICO diets do, in fact, burn fat and lose fat weight. But do so by creating an unsustainable hormone imbalance, which is why nearly all folks who lose weight on CICO diets gain it back as soon as they start eating normal amounts of energy again.

(Old Baconian) #24

The liver can, however, store glucose as glycogen. Unlike muscle glycogen, which cannot leave the muscle, liver glycogen can be shared with other organs. One report I saw suggested that liver glycogen is used first to meet a sudden need for glucose, which takes some of the strain off of gluconeogenesis to keep everything supplied.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #25

Good point. In reality:


Whole-body glycogen content is approximately 600 g, a figure that varies widely based on body mass, diet, fitness, and recent exercise. Not surprisingly, skeletal muscle cells represent the largest depot of glycogen (see Table 1).40 During intense and prolonged exercise, the glycogen content of active muscle cells can be substantially reduced but does not fall further than approximately 10% of initial values.4 The content of glycogen in liver cells varies throughout each day depending upon the carbohydrate content of the diet, the time between meals, and the intensity and duration of recent physical activity. Although muscle and liver glycogen represent just 4% of the body’s total fuel stores, muscle glycogen is the primary fuel during exercise of moderate or greater intensity.37,41


(Bob M) #26

You might be reading that wrong. It’s basically the idea that eating a lot of protein causes a corresponding large amount of gluconeogenesis, causing blood sugar (and insulin) to go up and therefore causing one to get “kicked out” of ketosis.

I guess we also have to ignore that protein causes an insulin rise, which would affect this whole thing too.

Anyway, this week, I’m going to start a test of higher animal fat first then eating lean meat. Amber O’Hearn believes this leads to a better insulin/glucagon ratio, so I’m going to test it, with a twist.

Next week, I’ll eat high protein, low fat on the days I do body weight training (i.e., higher insulin = good for muscle mass). Then, I’ll eat high animal fat first, then eat protein second.

Unfortunately, the only fat I have is suet. Not sure how to get actual beef fat other than suet.

(Linda ) #27

Everything I read agrees with him …if your lacking in potassium magnesium the best sources are protein


I would go see a doctor first.

(Old Baconian) #29

I thought this idea had been superseded. Is it still considered accurate? I’m pretty sure gluconeogenesis is not simply a response to supply. We know that in cases where the pancreas is secreting neither glucagon nor insulin, serum glucose never gets out of control, so there are clearly additional mechanisms at work.

According to Bikman, the crucial datum is the insulin/glucagon ratio. Extra protein consumed when dietary carbohydrate is high causes insulin to rise (though at about half the effect of carbohydrate) and glucagon to remain low, resulting in a high insulin/glucagon ratio, which inhibits ketogenesis and gluconeogenesis. Whereas additional protein consumed when dietary carbohydrate is low is accompanied by the secretion of both hormones, resulting in a low insulin/glucagon ratio, which allows ketogenesis and gluconeogenesis (if not otherwise regulated) to continue.

(Edith) #30

That was how I interpreted. Unfortunately, Bart didn’t do any deep dives into providing evidence on why Paul was wrong. He would pretty much just state he was wrong.

I’m surprised I listened to the entire video. I actually found Bart quite annoying, lol, but I was in the car a lot today.

(Edith) #31

If you have any butcher shops nearby, you can ask them for their beef trimmings.

(bulkbiker) #32

" I actually found Bart quite annoying"

You’re not alone I do too…although I’ve never got beyond 5 minutes… you have more staying power than I do.

(Michael) #33

While recently doing my high load protein tests vs blood sugars, I had very high average blood sugars on the last day (average of 6.0 mmol/L), but just to confirm I measured my ketones, and they were also very high (3.0 mmol/L) after eating so much protein earlier in the day. This assured me that my glucose levels were not directly related to ketosis, thereby eliminating gluconeogenesis as a concern for ketosis (simply important for blood sugar levels).

(Jane) #34

You consider 108 (sorry - US units I can relate to) “very high”?

(Michael) #35

I consider 108 units as a daily average over a 24 hour period to be very high, yes. Spikes during the day going that high are fine, but not on a long term average, including sleeping time. Especially if I can get the long term average down under 100.

(bulkbiker) #36

It really isn’t “very high” Michael maybe slightly elevated.

If you ran at that level at all times your HbA1c would be 5.4% or 35.5 mmol/mol i.e. completely normal.

(Old Baconian) #37

For what it’s worth, the Australian sports medicine doctor, Paul Mason, says that he’s not concerned so much with the absolute levels of serum insulin, even if they are high, as he is with the size of the fluctuations. If you have a CGM, and the readings are all within a narrow range, you are probably fine, even at 108.

(Jane) #38

I think you are stressing out over minutiae


people would kill for 108 BS as a ‘normal’ and there are ranges here which are personal but if one is ‘hooked’ on going WAY lower for whatever reason they deem fit or ‘need in their life’, then truths about BS won’t matter to that individual so?

beat a dead horse here maybe in replies on it all?

but there are those that DO fall thru big cracks and must do them as the need so? sometimes our answers will never fit those few for whatever reasons we think we might understand their issues and questions.

(Edith) #40

So, the premise of the video debunking Paul Saladino’s reasoning for adding carbs to his diet was that adding more protein would cause an increase in blood sugar due to gluconeogenesis thus causing the consumer to exit ketosis. This exiting ketosis was a necessary part of the daily cycle and prevented electrolyte wasting.

Unfortunately, no evidence was presented in the attempt to debunk Paul Saladino. I may try to do a little research into this, but I’ve been keto for four years and haven’t ever seen any mention of anything like this. I will post links if I find anything.

In the mean time, I have now upped my salt to approximately 2 teaspoons a day, not including what’s in or on my food. Yesterday was the first day making it to those two teaspoons. I have to say, my heart palpitations were much better. Also, my need to be constantly sipping water has also gone away. I had to actually remind myself to have something to drink today. I’m not sure if that’s a good thing, lol, but that brings me back to a post I made some time ago about water consumption.

When I was a kid, I certainly didn’t walk around with bottles of water in my hands. In school, I got a drink during bathroom break or during lunch. There were some water fountains on the playground. I probably drank some during recess. People who live in places around the world without running water probably are not constantly “hydrating” during the day.

If we are following a keto way of life and believe it is healthier because it is closer to how our early ancestors ate, why do we drink water all day long? What has changed that we all carry around bottles of water needing to drink all day?

Edit: First article, not really a research article.