Saladino's idea that the ancestral diet wasn't low carb


What berry do you think about? I looked up one, the most abundant low-carb not true berry in my garden (raspberry) and even if I eat it galore (something I can’t do for more than some days per year, maybe weeks when I have a good year, last year was horrible), it gives me a fragment of my needs… It just wouldn’t help.

Oh, it changed so much? It changed nothing in my life but even my great-grandparents ate sweet pears and other modern fruits… At least I can’t imagine they weren’t sweet at this point, those weren’t ancient times, they were “noble”, sweet fruits…

BUT. I don’t remember super sweet tomatoes in supermarkets :frowning: Just normal sweet ones. We grow majestic sour juicy ones, I loved those :smiley:
But now there are fancy tomatoes made really, really sweet. The normal ones are tasteless, that’s why I try to grow them and I fail so much… My tiny plants are dying now and I don’t know why, I did everything. Normally many of them stays alive… And when they are 6 months old, they are still tiny despite being outside since very long at that point… I need to buy big plants and they function fine. It definitely cost extra money to grow my tomatoes but they have flavor! And they are our own. And we can pick them…
It’s so much easier with proper fruits :smiley:


Hi Shinita, I know what you mean about the super sweet tomatoes. Cherry tomatoes? I remember very early on in my ketogenic WOE did they become too sweet for me. They are far sweeter than raspberries. Raspberry and blackberry would be my favourite berries. I loved the wild blueberries I grew up with, but I don’t like the overly sweet jumbo blueberries they sell in the shops. The apples, pears and plums I ate growing up from our own gardens were small and pleasantly soury sweet, nothing at all like their poor cousins in the supermarket which taste either far too sweet or rather insipid. It’s a whole different world eating those fruits and berries from the supermarked, and I don’t desire them. But this summer my SO and I will pick our own berries from local farms, and this autumn we will pick some apples, pears and plums. It will be fun to compare them with those I grew up with. There is a certain joy in picking your own seasonal fruit. Your garden sounds a joy Shinita.


We are so lucky to be living in a point in time where anybody can claim whatever they want to. You can find lots of studies on every diet/protocol that will support your belief and you will find just as many (if looking) on the opposing side. Having study food protocols for over 40 years, there is not one size that fits all. The very first book I read was “Eat to Win” by Dr. R. Haas. (High carb). Famous coach to a number of tennis stars at the time. Plus another 300+ books and thousands of scientific papers on diets, longevity and bio hacking.
As much as we think we know about food and how our bodies react to it, we really know very little. In Okinawa Japan, they have a high number of Centenarians on a per capita basis. Their diet is approximately 90% carbs. But they also in the top 3 in the world for the incidences of stomach cancers. Why is this? Or why do the Inuit have a genetic abnormality that does not allow them to get into ketosis? I have a friend from South America who can eat starch all day long and his blood sugar moves only slightly. Why, when on keto you become fat adapted and have metabolic flexibility, do you still continue to eat only 20 grams of carbs per day? I truly believe long term balance is the key and that food is more than just macros. My neighbours across from me are 90 and 94. Appear to be in good health. They walk every day, they read every day and they socialize every day, either having visitors or online with family and friends. They eat good quality food, rarely from a box. They are always very friendly and positive.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #66

It’s not unreasonable to think both could be at work.

I don’t know how serious he was or wasn’t, but Bikman said something once in an interview that led me to believe that it might be a useful approach to fast long enough to kill off all our intestinal bacteria, and then, when we start eating again, the colon could be repopulated with bacteria adapted to the food we are eating.

For example, I heard recently a discussion of how Firmicutes spp. are beneficial in the mouth, but they are now routinely found in the intestine, and that is not good. I wonder if just cutting carbohydrate would be enough to kill them off, or if fasting would be better.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #67

I don’t know about that. Isn’t Okinawa called “the island of pork,” because of the high amount of pork they eat?

I guess this just proves your initial statement that people can claim whatever they like. I got turned off of the site of one vegan doctor, when he seriously tried to claim in a video lecture that eating beef caused diabetes.

And it’s not always bias at work. For example, Ancel Keys loved Corfu, because when he studied their diet, they were eating a lot of carbohydrate and very little meat, and they had a low rate of coronary heart disease. Turns out his team was there during Lent, which nobody thought to take into consideration. Their normal diet during the rest of the year involved a goodly amount of meat, lol!

(Megan) #68

I remember oranges being quite sour when I was a kid, same with most apples. Also far, far fewer varieties. I remember carrots tasting very robust and delicious, many carrots today are much sweeter with much less carrot taste. Same with tomatoes. Organic produce tastes closer to what I remember but still falls quite short.

(KM) #69

I was just thinking of oranges! The ones every so often in my youth that were almost floral, they were so fragrant, yet tart, and full of flavor. Tried a segment of cara cara orange at someone’s insistent, disgusting! If I hadn’t been looking right at it I wouldn’t have known it was an orange, just a bland wet sugar ball.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #70

There’s a variety of apple called Granny Smith here in the U.S., which my mother used to prize for their tartness when making an apple pie. It was a few decades ago, now, when the Granny Smiths stopped being tart, and Mom had to start adding lemon juice to her pies to get that tartness. Even Macintosh apples, the most popular variety in the U.S., and which used to be very tasty and not overly sweet, have been ruined, as well.


Hi ffskier, I agree with you about the ever present trap of becoming biased, it is quite difficult not to, it might be some intrinsic part of human nature. As to people cherry picking studies left and right, looking specifically for studies that agree with their viewpoints, well that’s not science, but again it’s very human, and it happens all the time. Which is why, although I do like to dip my toes into that pool of science and listen in, I listen much more to my own body, my body is my barometer to health after all, and when it’s happy I am happy.


I don’t even know if we could buy oranges in my childhood (lemons yes, bananas no except if we waited for hours in a row for some green ones, a few times a year, oranges…? don’t remember) but since I remember them, they always have a variety, some are very sour, some are sweet with little tartness. If the sourness is spot on, the sweetness is just right to me. I think. We almost never buy orange nowadays.
The apples got sweeter due to the variety. My old fav, Jonathan has tartness galore (it’s very sweet too but they balance each other out), it never changed but it lost popularity (as it spoils super quickly) and many of the new ones are sweeter or not but the tartness went down and I don’t like it. Not like it matter much, apple was among the very few fruits I pretty much dropped when I went low-carb (then I started to eat it again but in small amounts. like 8-20g at a time and very rarely) BUT as I still eat it, my little bite should be awesome!

I admit I don’t remember carrots just that they always was sweet…
But I remember properly tasting tomatoes, not these exactly zero flavor, zero sweetness, zero tartness things. In summer there is something in it…? Still no sweetness though except the fancy, more expensive sweet kind. But I can’t find sour tomato except in boxes so I only used Italian tomato purree in the last decade - and some home-grown ones. My SO still buys tomato, he feels some flavor in it, he says but admit our own is way tastier.

I remember when I made apple pancakes and the apple wasn’t the right kind and had to use lemon juice… That’s unfortunate.
Granny Smith is pretty great, we have a big tree. Just the right sweetness, great flavors, surely some tartness or else I wouldn’t like it but it’s not really tart. I think Jonathan was the only one that was tart enough for purposes where the apple bring tartness…

I have found overly sweet apples once or twice but if I avoid that kind, it’s normal apple. A bit too sweet for me now but I can handle sweetness in tiny amounts. Thankfully Granny Smith isn’t very sweet :slight_smile: It would be horrible as it’s not tart enough to balance it out.

And I looked it up. I get about no vitamin C from my lemon, using other fruits would help way more, not like I will eat that much of any of it regularly. So let’s hope I will get enough. Scurvy is easy to notice and cure, right? But I seriously doubt I could get it.


Hi Shinita. Pink lady apples and golden delicious, they are the sort of overly sweet apples that comes to mind, and then they will be pesticide and chemical laden with some waxy substance on them as well. The tartness and sweetness is a match made in heaven, both should be present in a good apple. I believe a good apple (organic, locally grown, picked in season, from a farm but ideally from one’s own garden) a day really is beneficial. The same with pears, and plums. But I would only eat them fresh and in season. Vitamin C prevents not just scurvy, but cell damage from free radicals and oxidation. I’d be more worried about the latter. So, because I will only eat fruits and berries in season, which leaves out the winter, during the winter I would eat grassfed organ meats to try and meet the vitamin C requirement. Anyway, to think, if one only eats a little of some food then one won’t get the benefits, I think is wrong. As every little thing helps, just like with exercise🙂


An apple a day would be a very horrible idea for me for sure!
A whole apple, oh my… Once I got a soft sugar poisoning from a half. Or not that but I definitely felt the rush of sugar and it wasn’t nice. But it would trigger overeating too and many other problems. And it’s mostly sugar and water, I wouldn’t need that.

Vitamin C has many roles, sure and we don’t need it for some on carnivore. We still need a tiny bit but not as much as someone eating carbs. I actually wondered about it a few times that maybe adding fruit would make my vitamin C situation worse. It adds vitamin C and it raises the need for it too… Maybe it’s not like that, I never read numbers that this amount of carbs undo the lowered vitamin C need situation and I recently read and forget something that at least hinted that I shouldn’t fear when I happen to eat fruit - but I surely would never eat fruit for health. It’s sugar, not for me. Merely joyful. And yep, maybe does something mysterious with my vitamin C “balance”.

It’s very right with lemon and vitamin C though. I barely get any from lemon even if I start drinking lemonade every day (unsweetened but I still call it lemonade, sue me :D). I couldn’t even avoid scurvy that way (according to what I know about it), good thing I eat food too and apparently that has enough.
The same with zillion micronutrients. If you consume a negligible amount, it’s not noticeably beneficial for that thing.


Hi Shinita, I can’t help but think if we went on that negligible amount principle we would have to pretty much gorge ourselves on every food said to be beneficial in order to reap those benefits, and we’d be making ourselves ill. We’d gorge on fruits and berries, or we’d gorge on organ meats, eggs, fish or muscle meats. I may be a strange one believing in variety and moderation more. I think what everyone agrees with universally even with opposing viewpoints when it comes to specific WOEs, is that we absolutely don’t need processed foods, sugar and seed oils in our lives, and should avoid them. I would throw in sweeteners in there as well, but that’s just my personal opinion.
But as to micronutrients, minerals and vitamins, we try to reach our requirements the best way we can. I even feel really good about my quarter teaspoon raw honey in the morning. And my raw milk has given me loads more energy, but one small and a half glass is enough. I don’t need to drink the whole bottle. That would be too expensive anyway.

But I also believe in variety for a healthy well-functioning biome which is why I am looking into eating more varied seafood, and organ meats. But if all I could afford was one tiny amount of grassfed beef or chicken liver from the local butcher a week, or every second week, I would still see it as beneficial, as opposed to thinking I would need to eat much more to reap the benefits.

When I think of eating fresh berries in season, I am thinking one cup fresh mixed berries picked by myself, eaten daily. And that should certainly be plenty. I remember when eating this in the past there’s this sense of wellbeing and balance and harmony that comes over your body, nothing like when you devour a piece of cake. That is a horrible feeling, I concur from all the birthday parties I’ve attended over the years. Even as a child I hated this feeling. But berries, fresh seasonal tart berries, it is another feeling entirely for me. No blood sugar spike or crash, just that feeling of harmony and wellness.

Walking is another part of being healthy, to walk, enjoy the scenery and that lovely fresh countryside air. I could never live in a city, though some people love it. My walk took me to that nice farm again, it always puts me in a good mood to visit that place, with lovely grass for their cows and their hens.
Anyway we can try to achieve optimum health, but in the end I don’t believe it exists, though I do feel much better since incorporating raw milk and simultaneously giving up conventional dairy, I have more energy. But I could never for example run a marathon. When I grew up, back in my home country Norway, I would ski a lot, but I haven’t had the balance for that since many years. But walking is excellent anyway. I don’t believe in overdoing it. I suppose you could say I’m quite a sedentary person, but for my refreshing walks, and housework.
Anyway, we do our best with what we have Shinita, as every day is precious, and our bodies really do deserve our best efforts and our best feet forward🙂


IDK how you arrived to that. Yep, I gorge myself on meat and eggs to get enough protein, it’s how things work…? The same with micronutrients. Just like my SO gorges himself on his food. A tiny amount is useless in most cases.
Having 1ml lemon juice here and there IS negligible for my vitamin C… It’s how things are. I could raise it without much force and it still wouldn’t do much as the amount would be so very very small. Even if I eat 20 rosehips and a few berries per year, that does about NOTHING. I shouldn’t think they would make me oh so healthier or help with anything at all as they just don’t. Too tiny amount.

Getting a semi-decent amount of vitamin C from my fruit? That would be forcefully gorging on fruit each and every day of the year. No thanks.

I have zero problem with processed food, by the way, I kinda need them and handle them just fine. I merely choose which to use and of course, it shouldn’t be my main food.
(And I still wonder who has which kind of “processed food” definition. I don’t really have any, no idea if I should consider cheese processed but it IS processed… But sausage is totally processed and it’s a great item if good…)

You drink a decent amount of milk. My occasional few drops of lemon juice is different. It’s super potent, very, very sour. A few drops go a long way, it just doesn’t really help with nutrition, obviously.

Yeah probably many of us, especially in the carnivore thread NEVER would want to do it let alone regularly. That’s a ton! MAYBE one day I will be super wild and I go near that amount in raspberry season but it’s highly unlike… And it would be one day per year… Or maybe multiple days, last year we had way less raspberries and no strawberries… And I don’t like blackberries so much.
The sugar would make it very much not worth it anyway…

Even on keto, ages ago, I ate 3-5 raspberries sometimes. Not a cup! :smiley:


Hi Shinita, obviously as our WOE is animal meat based we eat to satiety on those foods, but by gorging I simply meant eating till one felt uncomfortable, and it was a bit of an exaggeration to make a point. Dr. Stephen Phinney believes there are valuable micronutrients and minerals from vegetables, nuts/seeds, and berry fruit. For me vegetables never make me feel optimum, possibly because of the oxalates, but berries and fruit have always left my body feeling good. Though I haven’t eaten them for such a long time, fruits at least, I’ve not eaten for 6 months, so I don’t know at this point how my body would assimilate them. The biome changes constantly with what we eat, and certain enzymes to digest certain foods could potentially die off. So it’ll be interesting to see in summer and autumn.

I watched a video of an interview with Dr. Paul Saladino, where he talked about the various toxins in vegetables. Here is the link, if you’re interested.
Of course, yet again, it’s different for everyone.

When I think of processed foods, all of which I decided to give up, I don’t even think of the ultra-processed, but the heavy whipping cream, cheese, bacon and gammon which contain nitrites and nitrates, I just feel better consuming 1-ingredient foods apart from my favourite Aberdeen Angus burgers which contain the spices pepper and salt, but that’s me. We’re all different, with different situations, and different preferences.


I love fruits but they are almost just sugar macro wise. While a cake has plenty of fat and protein so it’s much more well balanced and feels… Not better, I love my fruits and in the right amount both feel right… Of course I still can’t imagine a sugary cake, it was too long ago. I don’t even understand why people put carbs into a cake when it works even better without, oh well. Some cakes are better and one doesn’t need to be a low-carber to make them, I saw lots of recipes in normal sites. Other people realized that walnut is tastier than wheat flour and that fruits are sweet…

But I hadn’t really problems with old cakes either, my body is resilient. Maybe 5 years ago I had 20 slices, I was merely full considering I already ate a proper daily keto meal before… Oh well, it had to be done, there were so many different cakes!

While I did have problems with fruits eaten alone, sugar alone is something my body has problems with. So I am more careful with them.


It makes even less sense then. We don’t need that ever, obviously. We don’t even need overeating (I am almost never uncomfortable when overeating)! Just a decent amount. Not a tiny amount that doesn’t give me anything significant.

Of course there are important nutrients in basically everything. It doesn’t mean it’s beneficial to eat them. It doesn’t even mean they aren’t toxic, obviously toxic plants and mushrooms have plenty of good stuff.
Thankfully we can choose and I don’t choose sugar, no matter how enthusiastic anyone is. Except myself, I do love my fruit. And I enjoy the hell out of them. Part of it is talking about them, thinking about them, looking at them even when they are just flowers… Eating is tricky as the sweet fruit is not healthy, per se but I can handle a little amount so it doesn’t compromise my health then. But gives me joy. Just a tiny extra compared to what I get from it without eating…

I rather eat vegs, some of them are wonderfully suit meat, juicy and nice - and they give me the Vitamin C I may need. I can’t get it from fruits or I need to eat a lot of bothersome sugar as well, nope, bad idea.

I don’t say I need vitamin C from plants, I have no idea but as I eat them anyway, I can appreciate their tiny help. It’s rarely significant, I would think… But I have ascorbic acid, I can eat it if I worry about vitamin C. I don’t, I just wonder about it sometimes. I don’t think I ever would eat vegs for their nutritional value, I only eat them when I can’t not eat them because they are so very tempting and very much harmless. And if they help something, cool.

I don’t care about veggie toxins. My body has no problems with any vegs as long as the carb intake is low but as I lost almost all interest in them…
I just can’t imagine that my occasional slice of radish would make ANY difference in my health. Research would damage my mental health though, I already feel I did too much but no, I like to read about things, sometimes it’s even informative… But it was enough, at least regarding food I don’t even eat. Just a wee bit because it’s awesome :wink: And mostly water and joy.


Her video is far, very far from anything. The terms she consistently uses “Maybe” and What I suspect" are not facts, but rather her own biases. Check out her published papers.
Here is a proper researched study

(Robert) #83

I heard most of those (2) podcast episodes with that guest and they definitely weren’t the best. Honestly I just lost interest in the guest at some point. In terms of glycogen in animal foods, it’s an interesting question. Wouldn’t the feed the animal being consumed is given as well as the type of tissue being consumed by you (us) be factors in this?