But there was NO such statement from Alec… And it seemed to me you meant that with
There was NO such statement at all.
Some people are against fruit in general but many of us aren’t like that. It’s not about individual things and wrongness, it’s about treating something that’s not even true as gospel. No, fruit is very much not needed for health, looking to people living better without it…
No one said their problem is Saladino that he don’t say “fruit is bad”. Nope. The problem is “fruit is good and we all should eat it if we want to be healthy”, it’s still secondhand info here but no one complained and why would trusted people of this community lie anyway.
It’s so simple. IDK why people can’t seem to understand me or what is going on here, we communicate clearly enough (maybe not me but I write enough to make it somewhat clear?).
If we want to tell people how to eat, yes, we need to have standards. Lying, mislabeling, being lost in our one (wrong, at least general) beliefs, totally ignoring that people are different, that’s a huge flaw. I never would even listen to a video from someone like that, I can do better with my time but I understand you would as indeed, maybe you hear something useful. Just don’t believe anyone simply, research, ask your own body etc.
Hi Shinita. It is easy to misunderstand and put things out of context, so I’ll try remember what I originally wrote in my posts. I never said it was right of Dr. Paul Saladino to state his WOE is the WOE that will help everyone, nor did I say it was right of him to say everyone should be eating fruit, in these things I disagree with him and in his approach. I wrote in fact that it’s wonderful his WOE works for him, that he was able to incorporate the foods, raw milk, raw honey, berries and fruits into his WOE while simultaneously writing that I did not agree with him saying everyone should do this. I have written several times about how there are so many variables, how we’re all different, how this is all so incredibly individual. I don’t take Dr. Paul Saladino’s word for gospel, nor do I take any of the other youtube experts/doctors’ words for gospel, but I may see some wisdom in all of their lectures combined. I continue to research nutrition as I am very interested in the subject, and continue to learn.
Lastly, yes, when starting people on a ketogenic WOE I fully understand the importance of a simple formula and easy rules to follow to ensure success instead of failure so the people starting a ketogenic WOE can get the most benefit. But there must also be some room for discussion whether remaining perpetually in ketosis is as healthy for everyone, or if, this is also highly individual. I can see it potentially being more problematic for a woman with regards to thyroid function, but I would need to do more research. I am very happy in my WOE now, with having incorporated my raw milk and honey. I am still slimming down, I can feel it in my clothes, and nothing in how my body feels tells me I’ve fallen out of ketosis. But would it still be healthy to, say, in the summer fall out of ketosis, eating some berries and fruits to elicit insulin response? Possibly. And then cycle back into ketosis, and repeat the same with the fruits in the autumn. Only my body would tell me if this would be a good idea, because I stay in ketosis for one reason: to be rid of inflammation. Now my body feels inflammation free, it feels good, healthy and strong, I have more energy than I used to. If I began to ache again, and all the inflammation returned I would know the body was not in a good place ketosis free. But if, on the other hand, my lymphatics were in good shape, I continued to feel good, and the inflammation stayed gone, that would be evidence to me that cycling in and out of ketosis might actually be beneficial.
I always listen to my body Shinita, as opposed to science. Because science can be wrong or that the complete picture is missing, people can be wrong, though I do believe in the importance of science, in the form of exploring and questioning and searching for answers. And I do pay attention to the science, but I listen much more to my own body.
Cooking isn’t required for some other plants either (nuts or say, dandelion or nettle leaves. some people eat those too), I always heard the argument that the plant want us to eat the fruit so it doesn’t have the protection other parts have. Makes sense to me. Too bad that our modern sweet fruits are full with sugar so I definitely wouldn’t choose them from a nutritional viewpoint… I eat them because they are lovely (mental health benefit, I suppose it may calm down my rebellious freedom lover self too) and my body can handle them in moderation just fine. Some positive things may be in them but I don’t care about that tiny amount I probably don’t even need as I get about everything I need from my animal food.
So I kind of understand eating very low sugar fruits, I don’t consider them particularly useful for myself but maybe they are for others.
And I lose the plot at other plants as I don’t care about the toxins at all, my body still can handle them, I merely avoid them because of to the sugar (net carbs). But I understand why someone considers not particularly sweet fruits way better.
Never heard about it… Until now so thanks. I like to know things though sometimes they make little to no sense to me. (Anyway, how much carbs? We all eat carbs to some extent.)
Probably most of us agree with you on it, I especially do as I experienced it many times.
No one will take away my winter tropical fruit season… But at least I don’t think it does any good to me beyond mental health and making me more awake (citruses are great). I can’t imagine them doing me much bad either (especially beyond the tiny sugar) but it’s me.
I am aware modern food isn’t ideal. I eat what I can and hope for the best. It worked this far.
At least I can choose my macros and even food items to some extent. I am sure my diet is healthier using cheap stuff now than it would have been hundreds of years ago as a poor one getting bread and oatmeal and little else… Or whatever people ate when they were very poor. Maybe fried rotten meat from stands, I saw videos about it. Middle Age had fast food. It wasn’t good, they were like modern people, sold crap for profit. So I still feel somewhat lucky. I even have clean water, I am luckier than the bigger half of the population of Earth.
Going too deep into things I can’t change anyway? Not my hobby. I care about things too much already. I understand the interest, of course and even I do what I can and that’s not very much at this point apart from avoiding carbs. All kinds except animal ones and fibers (those too but only because I try to do carnivore and because eating them wouldn’t make much sense to me as I don’t need them), non-starches the most. So fruit is pretty much out except lemon. I could find sour, otherwise tasteless wild fruit here and there but that would give me about a few mouthful of water and little else. Only rosehip is tasty and sweet but it’s hard to eat, IDK if it could give me any benefit but I hardly need it from that stuff. I eat my normal food.
I can get vitamin C way easier, without grabbing sugar with it. Maybe I will try. I probably won’t notice any change, it’s the problem with my body, it feels and behaves the same, no matter my woe except the sensitivity regarding carbs, I do feel that. So I can’t quickly (or at all?) tell if adding something is beneficial.
And “grassfed” wouldn’t (always) even make much sense to some of us as we eat non-grazing animals My food (ideally) eats other animals, mud and of course, grass and grains too, probably other things as well… Just saying, sorry. It’s so weird to me that people only consider beef meat. There are so many other options, even elsewhere (we here barely eat beef as it’s too expensive I suppose but the low availability doesn’t help either. You can’t buy beef in a village supermarket or at a village butcher, at least here. Or in a little town. I need to go to the city for some).
I understand your vitamin C thoughts and doubts and I have them myself. I surely barely get Vitamin C from my well-cooked meat BUT I never found (OK, didn’t search much) any info about what happens to Vitamin C after a lengthy cooking process. Or after a short, 30min frying process… I am sure it can’t be said accurately due to several factors but in this case some vague idea would be something! I don’t even know what the inside of my meat does after 2 hours in a 180C oven but that info surely could be found (or get using a thermometer I don’t have). But what happens with its Vitamin C? I am totally clueless. I don’t even know what my target should be as some people consider a bit more than what is needed for scurvy is enough while others eat it in insane amounts (at least it’s water soluble so really hard to overdose)… I am aware a carnivore needs much less but still some… I don’t even know if supplementing Vitamin C to a not strictly needed but possibly beneficial level would do something good to me…
Well it wouldn’t HURT, per se but I am bad at supplementing anything. I rather drink lemon juice, that’s nice and clearly beneficial. It acts like coffee to others just (I suppose) without the negative effects.
Too bad lemon isn’t local (some people have lemon trees but it must be kept in a big flower pot as it can’t handle the winter outside), it’s my major fruit now. But only a tiny bit is needed, that’s something. For the wakening effect, no idea about its Vitamin C content but it’s the same with my original intake and needs so it doesn’t matter so much anyway…
I know, I referred to him there, apparently he is very sure of his actual truth, very many “gurus” do that. Or normal people. I always felt a bit unusual saying people are individual and we don’t need the same diet…
I think I am done with Saladino here or anywhere at all.
Oh I am totally with you about simple rules may be good as a starting point and many people seem to love such simplicity even if it can’t be right in general, you and me both try to find our own sweet spot, experiment and tweak. Very right, many on this forum does the same. We all need out individual style for various reasons.
I have no idea, I only know that NO WAY I will do carnivore in June when I will have about 6 different fruit seasons in my own garden… I tried to behave since January (December is still a non-keto month for me. it’s not as wild as before but there is still room for improvement. but I never plan to do it carnivore unless if I will desire only carni food, it’s not completely impossible just highly unlikely for the next years) as these 5 months were my big chance to embrace my almost-carnivore chosen default woe. I believe that it gives me great training so when June (and the other months until December) comes, I will be able to moderate my fruit consumption more than ever. And it’s way lower than before since several years. The vast majority of our fruits goes into my SO’s belly. And it’s good as we have much.
Fruit is the main reason I go off carni/keto all the time. I love fruit but I consider it candy as it is, natural candy, too dense sugar with some other things like extreme deliciousness
Me too, I get it totally. Science (okay, I think about experiments here) may be biased. Too low N. The people being cherry-picked - or very normal but not like me… Various mistakes always can happen. Not very useful for me individual body in several cases. While my body, while doing its best to stay the same on every woe, still communicates me and tend to give me feedback very quickly…
Science, the part where it explains things, that can be more useful. There are some facts of the human body, not very individual things… I even look at experiences of others. But my body has the last word And the decision about what to do, how to eat. Even I can’t force things on poor thing, it has the power as it has the parts that make me live. But I want to spoil it anyway. It deserves it.
Hi Shinita, I always enjoy reading your posts, your writing style. I can’t copy and paste as am always typing on my phone, and so will again have to just try and remember your post. I believe our bodies are smart, when it wants something specific it tends to be it is lacking in some vitamins and minerals. That it picks up on some kind of deficiency. I had my quarter of a teaspoon raw honey this morning, I was tired and needed to wake up, and the honey, which doesn’t taste sweet so much as wild and floral always leaving my tongue slightly tingly, worked both as a neuro stimulant, like coffee, and an appetite suppressant. After that quarter of teaspoon I was happy, that amount is absolutely enough. But it was a good way to wake up. Coffee is my second vice, I don’t even think it has health benefits, but it keeps me awake, and I like the taste.
My WOE feels so luxurious. Starting the day with a bit of raw honey, then one our later a glass and a half of raw milk, then one hour later (I like to eat foods separate for better bio-availability) a plate of delicious cold chicken thighs from yesterday’s big cook up. I feel like a queen eating this way, and like you, I believe my body deserves it.
Tomorrow I will walk to the farm again and get some more raw milk, but I still have plenty pasture eggs and that honey will last me months. My SO has a ginormous honey jar from the supermarked, and one could say that’s better value except it might as well have been just table sugar.
After swapping all conventional dairy with grassfed raw milk, though I also eat a bit every day of my KerryGold grassfed butter, I have no cravings. Virtually none. And I can now appreciate that when I was eating the heavy whipping cream, I did crave it, for its lovely fluffy cloudy texture and sweetness, especially in my coffee. But now, with raw milk in my fridge, I don’t crave heavy whipping cream at all. I also gave up the conventional cheese (and haven’t so far found a nice raw, grassfed one that is affordable) and I don’t actually miss it. I read somewhere if you were intolerant to something, like conventional dairy, it was also likely you became addicted to it, but I can’t really see the logic in this, and perhaps I misunderstood something. It is easy to get a gist of something, but to entirely miss the complete picture.
Enjoy your fruits in June Shinita, that is the best way, better even than collecting them from local farms, to pick them from your own trees in your own gardens. I understand why you think of them as Nature’s candy, they are after all so very sweet, but I believe there are also benefits to eating them. Do you grow berries? They provide potassium, magnesium, vitamins C and K, fiber, and prebiotics for a healthy gut, and if you’re worried about carbs I don’t know of anyone who gets fat from eating seasonal berries. Or from fruits for that matter.
I have of late been thinking about supplements, and I suppose there is a rebellious side to me too, in that I am keen to see if I could possibly achieve getting everything I require from the food, not supplements. For two days now I’ve not taken my magnesium citrate (1) because it’s expensive (2) because I want to see if the body, if I provide it the right nutrients, can get by without it.
It must be noted that there is no known carbohydrate deficiency disease, which is why the carnivore diet is even possible. By contrast, our bodies require certain fats and certain amino acids, or we sicken and die. The Inuit among whom Vilhjalmur Stefansson lived ate almost exclusively animal foods, and after his first contact with them, he lived the rest of his life on an all-meat diet. Owsley Stanley was another well-known long-term carnivore, who was in perfect health at the time of his death in a car crash. Several prominent carnivores of our day have been on a plant-free diet for over a decade, with no deleterious effects.
So, whether or not plant foods are good or bad for us, we certainly don’t need them, whereas a meat-free diet requires careful planning and taking supplements to get the right nutrients.
But it is this Paul, the need to be taking supplements that makes me question it. Well, one of the things. If we could get our magnesium and potassium from fresh seasonal berries, would there even be a need for a potassium or magnesium supplement? Since starting to drink raw milk, my body has benefitted in numerous ways, the skin on my hands was terribly dry, now it’s nice and smooth. My SO couldn’t believe the difference. I am slimming down, not putting on weight from all this raw milk drinking, and I’m feeling just fine, with all the benefits/signs of ketosis still present. So I could never say the raw milk was not needed by my body, as very clearly it was. Dr. Ken Berry and Dr. Paul Mason looks down upon dairy, even raw milk, but raw milk is a powerhouse of nutrients that together help replenish and heal the gut. Particularly important for me who’ve been on long term antibiotics. Berries, in addition to providing potassium, magnesium, vitamins C and K, also provide prebiotics, which I believe are vital for a healthy gut. I believe there needs to be much more focus and discussion on what makes a healthy gut with regards to the biome. Science has shown it changes all the time with what we eat.
I don’t know about any known carbohydrate defiency disease, but I don’t see why, if there are no vitamin and mineral deficiencies ever noted, we are so reliant upon supplements? It just doesn’t make sense to me at least. My goal is not to take any supplements, and see if I can get everything I require from the food. From a WOE based on these basic foods: animal meat (a combination of conventional muscle meats and grassfed organ meats, fish), pasture eggs, raw milk, raw honey (quarter of a teaspoon daily) and seasonal (summer, and autumn only) berries and fruits, in modest amounts. It’ll be interesting to see if I still will require any supplements.
The supplementation I mentioned is required by a vegan diet, because there are certain nutrients that a vegan diet cannot provide, in particular, certain B vitamins. On the other hand, carnivores generally don’t require supplements, unless there is something wrong with that person. The diet is complete in theory, subject to individual needs, whereas a vegan diet is incomplete for everyone.
In any case, as I mentioned before, there is no need to justify your food choices. Your extended comments seem designed either to persuade others to follow you, or to get us to approve your choices for yourself. You already have the latter; you don’t need to solicit it.
Moreover, you can’t persuade me to adopt fruit as a regular part of my diet, because I know how my body works. I can occasionally tolerate a small amount of high-fibre fruit, but in general fruit is not good for me. Raw milk makes no difference for good or ill that I can tell (except for my pocket-book, lol!). Honey would be a disaster for me, even in the most minute amount, since I am a sugar and carbohydrate addict.
Even if I believed eating some fresh fruit would be beneficial for me, which I don’t, I definitely don’t consider the fruit available to us in 2023 would be beneficial to me. I remember fruit as a kid. The stuff sold in shops today is very different.
Hi Paul, I must’ve misread that, I see now you wrote meat-free. I agree with you in that supplements would likely be needed on vegetarian and vegan WOEs, I tried both in the past and both made me ill. But I’m a meat eater and not eating meat back then made me miserable.
My wording must’ve been clumsy if my recent comments seemed designed either to persuade others to follow me, or to get people on this forum to approve my choices for myself. I really had no such intentions, my thoughts were never these. It is just I like to share ideas, to discuss, read, learn, and I have to confess nutrition is a kind of hobby horse of mine, whenever I start talking about it to people I know they’re probably thinking, oh, she’s back on her old hobby horse.
I am aware we are all different, our journeys are unique, our starting points differ as do our goals, and progress, and our incentives. And that is all OK. I just get carried away whenever I’m interested in a subject. I can be annoying like that.
Hi Megan, I agree. I remember running up the mountainside as a kid, harvesting wild blueberries. I remember eating berries from my parents’ and grandparents’ gardens. Fruits such as our apples, pears and plums we harvested in the autumn. A real treat was buying cherries from local farms. I wouldn’t eat the pesticide and chemical laden fruits and berries in the supermarked. And I wouldn’t eat fruits and berries all year round. But I do believe in sourcing them seasonally and fresh from local farms, and I would like to pick them myself. But like I told Paul, I am not trying to get any of you following me in my choices, I am merely sharing a view. But we are all individuals, our experiences are unique, and if your WOE is working for you then there is no need to change it. I might decide to tweak my WOE and have my N=1 experiments, but that doesn’t mean I think everyone should do the same. Everyone should do what feels right for them.
I’m not talking about pesticides and chemicals, it’s the way they have been modified to make them so much sweeter than they used to be. Also the vitamin content is much lower b/c modern day agriculture strips a lot of nutrients from the soil etc. But regardless of the quality, beit amazing or terrible, I don’t see a place for fruit in my life. Great if eating some works well for you tho.
Hi Bob. I’ve read the science, well some of it. I’ve also read the scare propoganda. And I was cautious when I bought it. Even though this milk is from a very nice local grassfed farm, with lush fields. The farmers test their milk vigorously and it is also tested by the council 3 times a month. Still, at the start, I felt cautious. But the first time I tasted their milk, I was so pleasantly surprised, it just felt so lovely, rich and nourishing. And still, my body seems absolutely fine on it. I no longer have bloat and digestion issues, I have more energy, and the skin on my hands is smooth again. With regards to whether the raw milk will be beneficial in healing and replenishing my gut biome, I will let time and my body tell me.
I have tried raw milk from Jersey cows (all A2 protein, if you’re familiar with that). Unfortunately, the store that had that went out of business.
Now, I’m drinking milk from Holstein cows (A1 protein) and/or Jersey cows (A2 protein). The farm says that’s what they have. I may give them a call to see what actually ends up in the milk (could it be all Jersey one time, all Holstein one time, or a mix? Or is it always a mix?).
I THINK there might be a difference between all A2 and some/all milk being A1.
And healing the gut biome is a tough one, as there’s no metric/test for this. It’s just whether you feel better or not.
Hi Bob, I agree with this last you said very much, I can only really go on how my body feels, and let my body be the barometer. Yes, healing the biome I imagine is like searching for the holy grail.
No idea what kind of cows they have, it could be either, it could be a mix, but it’s a free range, grassfed herd, and I’m just so happy it’s a farm in my village within walking distance. I often walk there to buy my milk and eggs, lovely walk there too, very scenic.
There’s also an idea that the β-hydroxybutyrate produced by ketogenesis also heals the gut. I’m not so sure we really know as much as we think we do, in any case.
Definitely agree. I gave up on “the gut” for a long time, until I listened to a few podcasts where people had amazing stories of being completely repaired because they fixed their guts. One woman drank nothing but bone broth for an entire year, and some advocated raw milk too.
Of course, if you’re drinking nothing but bone broth, you’re going to be in ketosis, so BHB should be high. You can’t ever change just one thing in real humans.
Some of these people said they think hunger (for things like sugar too) is primarily driven by the gut. While I’m not sure about that, I often think that one of the benefits of > 24 hour fasts is how much the gut changes. The last 36 hour fast I did, I ate my meal, and then was not hungry at all. You would think that I would be, since I didn’t eat for 36 hours and exercised 90 minutes that morning, but I wasn’t.
It’s possible the fast affected the gut and lead to decreased hunger. Though it’s also possible hormones play a role. As always, it’s hard to tell.
Oh poor, poor forum, having you and me both… And you talked about fruit. I NEVER can resist that…
I grow everything I can here except kiwi or some too fancy things…
And now I went and finally looked up true berries… I only have gooseberries, currants, grapes and honeysuckle from them. (If I had the true berry banana, I hardly could stay so low-carb… One of my fav fruits. But it’s tropical.)
I have not true berries like raspberries (in 4 colors though the yellow and red ones created pink ones so there is a gradient between them), blackberries and strawberries.
And several other fruits, of course.
I don’t care which group my fruits belong to, I eat them all.
And not even all are too sweet. Quince is okay raw, pretty mild sweetness wise - and quite sweet but not overly sweet when cooked, it’s not common to eat it raw, we only do it with tiny amounts, it’s quite flavorful and refreshing.
But Williams pear and my late grapes… Oh those always remind me of honey but the flavors are different
The others are in between.
The two has nothing to do with each other, actually…
I have problems with CARBS. I only gain fat if I overeat epically. I totally can get sugar poisoned without gaining any fat, why couldn’t I?
I don’t gain fat just because I eat a bunch of sugar anyway, way over the amount I get from my fruits including Williams pear and grapes. I need overeating fat too as that gives me the overly excessive amount of calories. Fruits can help with overeating, sure, being sweet and making me hungry (plum and banana are special though, they actually have a satiating effect for some reason) but I am careful enough with eating fruits too early and afterwards I have my proper meal anyway.
I maintain all the time, no matter how I eat (only what I actually can do, counts), it’s not about that. It’s carbs and their negative effects. Plant sugar is plant sugar, my body doesn’t like it in bigger amounts. But indeed, certain fruits are safer. Low-carb while flavorful? Great combo. Hard to overdo carbs with them (at least having my skills at not eating up everything in sight, it seems people tend to be even more wild than I, it’s amazing… I am not one with restraint :)).
And I want to lose fat. Not not gaining. Not gaining is the easing thing ever, I do whatever and it happens. (But I am already fat. It probably will be somewhat different if I ever manage to slim down.) Eating fruits probably ensures I won’t lose fat unless when it’s minimal. I still have an “overeater” in me, I need every help and has to avoid every potential problem items and fruits are firmly there even if maybe not a few raspberries or some grapes (I never eat much grapes as they are so insanely sweet and once they gave me a baby sugar poisoning. 2-3 lil balls are enough and I immediately eat a bite of fatty meat afterwards as the sugar poisoning happened after such an amount. and I am NOT that sensitive usually).
I surely won’t eat fruits every day or in big amounts like a whole apple! Just very rarely, maybe.
EDIT: I will have my first dogwood berries this year if I am lucky. It just flowered Yay! The forest is full with them but it’s hard to collect a proper amount. People say avocados are good only for a short time? Nope. It’s dogwood berries. They FALL, being all hard and red… At some point they get ripe and then immediately rot, it’s annoying, really. At least I can check my own frequently…
I don’t think so but you probably think about an animal-free diet. I needed no nutrition knowledge as a vegetarian (just to be okay, it wasn’t ideal for me just like my most people don’t eat their ideal diets. mine was surely healthier for me than the average person’s for them, the bar is very low) but I ate a lot and plenty of animal food (eggs and dairy).
A vegan diet is another world indeed, I was interested but from far away? I mean, it was interesting, I read things but I totally didn’t desire the bother to figure out how to get everything without animal products! The strictest I ever did was lacto-vegetarian but I almost always ate eggs too, in not too small quantities as I never cared who came up with what impossible limits…
it may calm down my rebellious freedom lover self too) and my body can handle them in moderation just fine. Some positive things may be in them but I don’t care about that tiny amount I probably don’t even need as I get about everything I need from my animal food.
My food (ideally) eats other animals, mud and of course, grass and grains too, probably other things as well… Just saying, sorry. It’s so weird to me that people only consider beef meat. There are so many other options, even elsewhere (we here barely eat beef as it’s too expensive I suppose but the low availability doesn’t help either. You can’t buy beef in a village supermarket or at a village butcher, at least here. Or in a little town. I need to go to the city for some).