My interpretation of this was in reference to foods like BP coffee. Early on with Keto, before I settled in and realized what my body needed, I read myriad recommendations to put fat on everything. Butter and oil in coffee. As much fat as you can fit in eggs. Mayonnaise on bacon. The list goes on. I was eating fat beyond satiety and I don’t think I was distinct in that. Once I actually saw mention of adding fat until satiated I was able to eat reasonably, starting with adequate protein, low carb, and then listening to how I feel for how much extra fat to add. Some days this is less and some days more but usually it ends up just being butter on veggies. Very rarely do I feel a bulletproof coffee would be good and I haven’t yet needed mayo on bacon. If someday that sounds good then I think that means my body is needing it for satiety.
Restrict plate fat when trying to lose body fat - discussion
So, if I am fat adapted type 2 diabetic on keto and do not have a high fasting insulin and have have 40 or so lbs to lose, theoretically even if I eat hypo caloric meals my metabolism will not slow down because my body will provide the needed fat?
Yes, unless there is a factor that I’m not aware of that is restricting access to body fat, if your insulin is low and you have 40 lbs of body fat to lose, let’s say 65lbs total then - you can theoretically generate 2000 kCal/day. You could restrict quite a lot and not see a slow down.
Satiety is a calculus that your body does in your hypothalamus that includes all those inputs. But for some people they just don’t feel satiated no matter how much they eat. For them only. I would suggest counting calories and maintaining a modest deficit.
Dr Phinney spoke about this study when he was in Sydney in 2016
One of the participants in that study lost only 7 lbs where everyone else on average lost 14lbs. She claimed they had ruined her metabolic rate. But her biomarkers told a different story. She had actually gained 7 lbs of lean mass in the 6 weeks, on a relatively hypocaloric diet. It sounds like that shouldn’t be possible. But that is because we have learned to associate weight loss in diets from lean tissue loss.
The general plan for losing weight is to reduce calories to draw down storage, as little as possible to reduce metabolic rate drop, and keep protein intake abnormally high to try to minimize the loss of lean tissue.
But in a ketogenic context, there really is a different calculus. If the person has adequate body fat and has lowered their insulin sufficient enough to access that, and it adequately supplies energy demands — then the body doesn’t need to resort to lean tissue as an energy source, or to lower metabolic rate. You can probably go below satiety and slightly depress your metabolic rate and still lose. But satiety should set a gentle glide path that brings the body into a landing zone that might now be bikini body ready … but should be a body optimized for reproductive survival. And in the case of this one woman who was relatively sarcopenic (a restricter who didn’t have enough lean tissue) it increased her lean tissue.
There are some in our thread on 100lb “Centurians” who do get fairly normal on the BMI chart.
Myself I went from Obese III to the cusp between overweight and obese, I went from 46% body fat to 19% so I am trusting my body knows what is optimal. I’ve managed to keep my metabolic rate up over 2700 despite losing 1/3 of my weight from my peak. I’m not ever going to be skinny, I’ll always be built like a rugby player, a front rower, but not the fat kind hopefully.
It is possible that some peoples’ bodies derange hypoglycemically in the presence of carbohydrates such that their nadirs have driven an unhealthy inability to store an adequate amount of energy. A ketogenic diet and the stable supply of glucose that results might be a positive for people who understore energy as much as those of us who store too much. It’s just an hypothesis. But if you think your performance to run a 26k every day is diminished then maybe keto hasn’t done you any favours.
I suspect once we get insulin down, we have remove the disseminated vascular insult that causes CVD, Stroke, the complications from T2DM, etc. It may be that if we can get people with raging type 2 diabetes to get their glucose and insulin down into normal ranges, that obesity loses it’s predictive power as a marker for disease risk and becomes simple a marker for injury risk (ie: being overweight becomes more correlated with sprained ankles or knee joint damage than cardiovascular disease).
It certainly is possible to be obese and have a zero Calcium score which is observing the progression of the actual disease - so the association must be weak.
Well there are some long term keto folk who do some biochemically questionable things with their fuel sources such as take exogenous ketones to make them feel better, or go through phases of crash caloric restriction which will ratchet down your lean mass over time.
There are also some keto coaches who have never been obese and are setting an unrealistic expectation for what a ketogenic diet does - it removes the derangement so your body can find it’s own optimal energy storage state, it doesn’t necessarily just reduce body fat.
Fastest way back to ketosis?
I feel your pain. We could be twins. Reading this thread for bits of wisdom or hope.
K
I’m itching to add my n = 1 here.
I had my first DEXA scan then I ate fat to satiety (this translates to an enormous amount of “plate fat”, I was a hungry bunny).
I continued my usual twice weekly heavy lifting routine. But in this experiment I DECREASED my protein by nearly half. I had been eating 120 grams protein a day, guessing at a 120 pound lean mass and at the time wanting to eat 1 gram protein per pound of lean mass. Upon much evaluation and reviewing the work of Rosedale, Phinney, and Dr. Jason Fung, I decided the optimal protein intake for me to be approximately .5 grams per pound of LBM. (I added a bit extra because I lift.) I decided on 70 grams protein per day and fat to satiety.
TO SATIETY. This was important, as I believe I had been overeating protein and I needed to replace that fuel source. Throughout this experiment my carbohydrate stayed between 5 and 20 grams net per day.
Three months later I went in for my second DEXA scan. Remember, I was eating fat to satiety, in other words, as much fat as I wanted…
My DEXA showed a GAIN of 4 pounds of lean mass and a LOSS of 1 pound body fat. This from a girl already ketogenic 3 years…
Do I know what I am doing? With MY body I sure as hell do. I suspect most others can eat fat to satiety also, and experience a similar result.
No fat gain.
I believe this strongly. To me? anything else is going to risk slowing the metabolic rate if the body is not given sufficient fuel.
On the ketogenic diet the body uses fat for fuel. FEED IT
FAT IS NOT THE LEVER, INSULIN IS!
Insulin is the fat storing hormone. Dietary fat does not raise insulin. Hmmmmm.
The trick is, figuring out what “to satiety” means. I believe most of us are able to do that.
Very good point. This is where I am struggling. That and where I set my protein grams. My nephrologist says no more than 1/2 gram per pound of full weight. I’m a 48% fat ball. I have run up the fat and sometimes I gain, sometimes I lose. Not consistent at all. I frequently feel hungry.
I personally do not believe so, no. Not if you stop when sated. Eat beyond that may mean trouble, but really. It is difficult to eat pure fat beyond satiety. You feel nauseated.
When you say you gain or lose, by how much? are you looking at degrees of fluid retention/loss perhaps? It is truly difficult to eat fat beyond satiety. One should not be hungry on keto. How long have you been fat adapted? and I hear you on the nephrologist. If you have kidney disease, pay attention to those limits.
I keep wondering if I am fat adapted. I journal the % macros look right. And yet, somehow I feel hungry. Not ravenous, just still hungry. I’ve clearly lost weight, have bunches of nsvs, some health improvements. This week finished fast on Tuesday eve. 163. Wed 163.6, Thurs 163.6, Friday 164.4, Sat 165. Just a steady climb.
Calories a bit high, but <20 g net carbs, mod protein, high fats. Some dairy. Mostly HWC, butter, slice cheddar. I am super salt sensitive. On potassium sparing diuretic prescribed, omega 3 prescribed, both for kidneys.
However I am ahead of my loss line for a goal of 50 lbs loss in a year and kidney health measurements improved. Just breathe and KCKO or increase protein, or fat or ?? Sorry, just have not budged weight wise all February. Hence my interest/thread on Leptin resistance. Not diabetic, not insulin resistant, just fat. 
K
Since the forum software won’t allow me to like this ten times, I’m doing it here.
Your weight is not always going to move. Relax. Your body is probably doing something else atm. Practice eating fat to satiety. Either you have cortisol causing hunger, or sodium issues, but I suspect not enough fat, only because I see this SO often.
That is more protein than what I eat. If you are 163 then probably your lean mass is 120 (guessing here), divide that in half and you get to 60 grams per day more or less. As @Brenda mentioned, one common measure if 1 gram per kilo of LBM. There are other measures you can find where you add a certain number for every inch you are over 60 inches. Obviously stay within whatever guidelines your doctor recommends however it sounds like you need to be somewhere between 50 - 80 grams per day
Hey you are psychic! My fitness pal is set at 66 grams. Love your support, makes me feel that at least I’m on the right track. You are sweet to suggest that I am 120 LBM. I’m registering on MRC’s scale at .48% fat. So 85 lbs LBM. Anyway my nephrologist has limited me to 165x0.5= 82 g protein, but that’s an upper !imit. I’m using 0.4 g times total weight or 66g protein. Couch potato here.
K
I love this thread. “Its gold Jerry! Gold!” (apologies to all non-Seinfeld fans). I think the last 2 weeks have converted me from an avid listener of 2KD to a bona fide fan (and patreon). I listened to the episode on satiety and I have been reading this thread almost everyday since Sunday. I was pre-diabetic (HbA1C 6.1%) I started keto in Mar '17 and have lost nearly 55 lbs since then and at 6’7" at 230 lbs, I’m getting close to 25 BMI (for whatever that is worth). Brought my A1C down to 5.5. But after I read this thread, and @richard’s pieces in particular, I actually went ahead and ordered a fasting insulin test and discovered that my fasting insulin is 11.1 uIU/ml (77 pmol/L). Wasn’t thrilled to discover this but now I actually have a better understanding of why I’m no longer losing weight at the same clip. Meanwhile, after listening to the satiety episode last week, I decided to follow @carl’s approach of to eating to satiety. The result has been some weight loss (I measure tomorrow…I measure once a month) but a definite improvement in energy level and loosening of clothes. You guys rock! And thanks @Brenda. Your posts have that motivational kick that always help. But the best thing is that I believe more than ever now that weight loss is a (very good) side effect but metabolic healing is the real goal.
More than ever committed to keeping calm and carrying on!
I’m replying to bring this post back to the top. I admit I struggle to follow the charts and scientific explanation. So instead, I’m reading the discussion hoping the back and forth will help it sink into my brain. I lost 65 lbs in the first 6 months of Keto, very easily eating bacon, eggs, steak, veggies with butter, etc. I think this is what is referred to as lazy Keto. I didn’t measure anything. I put fat on everything. Yet, I felt I was eating clean Keto for the first year, total carbs less then 20 g per day.
I have another hundred to lose. I’ve been stalled for quite some time and have lost motivation and had a few detours back into carbs (crazy carbs, not just the healthy ones). I know I am a carb addict and that a 'healthy sweet potato always ends with me mainlining twinkies in the gas station parking lot!
I am back on the Keto track for the past 30 days. I’ve lost 8 lbs with Keto and IF. But as soon as I eat more than OMAD I gain weight.
My a1c is 5.7. Fasting glucose is 118. Fasting insulin is 41.1
Blood pressure 130/99 Blood Sugar 100
My first thought was I needed to stop eating the entire ribeye with butter on it and begin following ‘macros’ that would limit me to 12 oz a day of protein. Since I am very insulin resistant my body must be turning the excess protein into glucose keeping me spiked.
As a food addict I have trouble identifying when I am satiated. I get hungry at the three hour mark, though my last meal was two eggs fried in bacon fat and six slices of bacon. One modification I’ve made is to eat NOTHING between meals and to stop eating past dinner time.
I’d like to see my numbers get into the normal range and I am going to cook and eat that ribeye that has been dry aging for three days but then what? Do I fast? Do I count macros? Do I keep eating fat, protein and 20 carbs or less and live with the stall?
Thank you Richard I’m one of those people, I read every where that we should eat fat to satiety but if I take that literally I’ll try to eat the whole pig if you give me a chance. Common sense just tells me to stop, not some “voice” or “feeling” in my body. I’m much better if I can set a certain amount of food that meets all my macros and just eat what’s on the plate. So that’s exactly what I’m doing, counting calories and maintaining a modest deficit.