Resistant starch - left the carnivore thread


(Edith) #1

@SlowBurnMary, the article linked below discusses how much resistant starch is formed by cooling white rice. It is only 1.6 grams of resistant starch per 100 grams of rice. How is that worth it? How does such a small amount make a difference? Are you sure it’s not the placebo affect?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26693746/


(Randy) #2

It did say that it lowered glycemic response “significantly”.

Their idea of significant and mine may be at loggerheads though. :wink:


#3

My understanding is that small doses go a very long way in the microbial environment. Due to it being a relative hassle to prep RS sometimes, I wouldn’t ascribe my n=1 to placebo - it’s more that the lived experience of amping my endogenous butyrate production and BDNF enhancement have def boosted my coping with extremely high stress conditions the past year. The mental lift has been MUCH appreciated, and my ongoing body recomposition is further encouragement.

Individual gut conditions can vary A LOT of course. As Amy Berger MS points out, people do have genetic differences that influence their response to various macro- and micronutrients. In my experience the RS thing has been one more helpful tool in my toolkit.

What’s working for me in terms of both indigestible RS (retrograded type 3 is what I use, erractically, but usually at least once a week) and higher, mostly whole foods carbs (pre-maintenance level of days with up to 75-100 total carbs) may simply be due to my genes or enzymatic profile and have no effect or opposite on others with poor gut funciton which requires a much slower weeding, seeding, and refeeding process.

There are different voices on the topic - wide ranging in their perspectives on ancestral health, and women’s specific hormonal health needs (well, usually that’s ignored by many except Berger, Dr. Cabeca, Mindy Pelz DC, Stefani Ruper, etc). Part of what emboldened me to experiment with RS for mental boosting came from reading up on various angles, then experimenting once the conditions were right. This has only gotten better by following Dr. Michael Eades’ tips on incretins, and eating protein first at meals whenever possible, which lowers insulin response regardless of the carbs that follow.

I’m having a great time with my n=1, also on behalf of helping other midlife women as well. It probably also helps that I’ve been on a longtime path of approaching food practices as ancestral medicine of some form or another, based in the ancient principle that robust digestive fire is the gateway to health.

For those who are 100% fat-adapted, free of food addictions, and keen on maxxing variability for longterm health through the basic biohacking with RS and/or higher carbs (the pre-maintenance levels as well described by Phinney, Volek, Westman, the Drs. Eades, to name a few) here are some very interesting resources.

This one educates on endogenous butyrate production that can actually heal damaged DNA by causing it to self-destruct…! It focuses on RS regardless of other dietary factors:

The benefits I’ve experienced are likely a combo of RS’s assistance with magnesium absorption, and improvement in postprandial female insulin & glucose levels which means even less ups & downs. Having the encouragement of ongoing body recomp doesn’t hurt either! Here are some more studies that have encouraged my self-experimentation, I originally came across much of this in the “paleo” context, but have found it to work great in a LCHF context.

Here’s the “paleo” Mark Sisson’s resource guide on the RS subject which contains tons of helpful references for the curious:

And Amy Berger MS magnificently sums up how the n=1 differences in the VLC vs. LC vs ZC worlds could be one of civil discourse, curiosity, and diversity:

:joy:


(Edith) #4

Thanks for the info.

I’m still not convinced. I admit to only reading through the abstracts, but all of the studies were not done with people eating a VLC diet.

Yes, it improved glucose control in one of the studies, but would you need glucose control if you weren’t eating a sugary muffin?

Would you really need resistant starch to improve Mg absorption if you are not eating foods high in phytates or oxalates in the first place?

Mark’s article was interesting. I like Amy’s about everyone is different. Of course, we are very aware of that on this forum. We are all really the Star Trek of eating. We are boldly eating how no one (in the past fifty years) has eaten before. :crazy_face:


#5

Lets say I would buy a bag of green banana flour…how would I start the resistant starch protocol? How much would I need, when would I add it to my diet, etc.?


(Bob M) #6

I would go with potato starch. I’ve tried other flours, but they caused me allergic reactions. For instance, plantain flour. I also tried tiger nuts. I also ate natto (fermented soy beans). See this (column after time is ketones from Precision Xtra ketone meter, then blank, then ketones from a ketonix breath analyzer, blank, then notes):

I could stay in ketosis like this. I tried this and various probiotics, including soil probiotics. If I tried to heat and cool potatoes or rice, it still caused high blood sugar spikes for me. I also found no benefits for just prebiotics and probiotics. Only detriments. There may be benefits for some people, but not for me.

I’ve since come full circle and try to minimize my fiber, including resistant starch. I don’t mind eating potatoes or potato starch (often in packages of grated cheese; avoid corn starch if you can) at times, but I see no benefit in eating these just to eat them.


#7

Very interesting…thank you for the detailed explanations :slight_smile: Did you notice any physical differences?

I’m histamine intolerant so I tend to stay away from probiotics as the majority of bacterial strains are histamine-unfriendly.


(Bob M) #8

I only noticed negatives. For instance, you have to start resistant starch very gingerly, as in maybe teaspoons. If you take too much at a time, it causes gastric distress.

And you have to experiment, because I got an allergic reaction from plantain flour. It took me a while to notice this, but once I did, it was consistent.

If there was a decrease in blood sugar, I could not tell (I have not showed my blood sugar columns, which at the time were pin-prick versions with a meter I since replaced as it seemed less accurate than the one I replaced it with). I can’t tell about HbA1c, as my lowest HbA1c occurred years later, while on a more strict keto diet.

It also seemed to cause more going-to-the-bathroom issues than I had later or now, after I transitioned to a mainly meat, some dairy sometimes, and eggs diet. It seemed to cause rather than prevent having to go to the bathroom all the sudden.

There’s nothing wrong with testing it, as potato starch is relatively cheap. And it has other uses as a thickener, too. Just start slow.


#9

Yes, I loved Amy’s article as I think the same and I know I am right, there are experiences, people DO thrive on various diets, we can’t do it on the exactly same one, we are different.
But I don’t know if many people are aware about it. I see ketoers and carnivores often think their approach is the single best one. Not so strongly in this forum but in general and there are such people here as well. I can even understand it to some extent. It works for me brilliantly so it’s probably the best for everyone. Well, not always.
And we eat similarly to zillion people in the past. Not the common people, though, that’s right so we go against nearly everything official guidelines, experts and normal people advise. I am quite used to it that I am some weirdo. Even on most keto forums as my keto isn’t typical.

Sorry I can’t say anything ontopic, I don’t even think about eating resistant starch, it doesn’t make any sense to me but my opinion isn’t scientific at all, of course. I am just this simple and avoid carbs as much as I comfortably can and my body approves.
And I know that the conclusion of some research easily has nothing to do with my own body. Especially if I eat differently to begin with.


(Bob M) #10

Oh yeah, the reason for the “had a drink last night” comments is this will supposedly affect the value the ketonix breath analyzer would give. It does not seem to affect the value, though.

Note that after 3 more years of low carb/keto, my ketonix values are much lower. This morning, the value from my ketonix was only 18, as compared with 60-80+ in the data above.


(John) #11

I have experimented with it - got a bag of Bob’s Red Mill Unprocessed Potato Starch. I started with 1 Tbsp per day, stirred into an 8oz glass of almond milk. Then upped it after a while to 2 servings per day - morning and evening, 1 Tbsp each time.

To be honest I haven’t noticed any difference in anything, at least not that I can attribute to the potato starch. I have not been extremely consistent with it. I hasn’t caused me any gastric issues that I know of. But I do eat other fiber-containing carbs pretty often (salads, green vegetables, berries, nuts) so maybe my gut biome gets what it needs from that.


#12

That cracked me up!!! And I just saw a young Leonard Nimoy as a guest on an old Carol Burnett show the other night. :vulcan_salute:

Well, on my planet (Venus in my 4th house in the zodiac), experimenting with food as medicine and what some call biohacking is also just fun and has helped keep me healthy even before keto. It makes sense to me that our large intestine bacterial allies can do with some help being that industrial culture’s onslaught of antibiotics & sugars since childhood has wreaked some havoc that our ancestors didn’t deal with! But I began with RS very cautiously.

And, in learning some of what Grace Liu PhD has learned in helping folks (particularly athletes) who’ve messed up their guts after many years (6-7) of medical keto or carnivore on a foundation of the usual industrial culture gut, I got inspired to care for my future gut in some add’l ways. I also learned that the microbiome part of us can range in weight from 2-6 pounds, higher weights being healthier states. Nutrient density and elimination of sugars definitely helps microbiome restoration, but maintaining that restoration over years can be an issue - and probably more for those with extreme stress or PTSD histories.

Earlier today I had a good serving of RS 3 refried basmati fried w/ ginger and chiles in ghee with my 3 eggs and raw goat cheese, as it’d been several days and my mental/emotional energy needed a boost and it’s kicking in right now. I’m so grateful that I share what I know, in the hope it might help other women who are navigating midlife emotional uproar and/or extreme mental stressors.


#13

Am no fan of the potato starch - too many stories of terrible gut reactions, plus white potatoes are problematic on many fronts (super hybridized, and high in mycotoxins).

Being that there are 4 kinds of RS, it’s worth exploring what might work naturally in one’s dietary practices. I eat 2/3 veg with most meals which supplies some RS - and to increase the mental medicine I went for chilled & refried basmati because I regularly eat curries and a few tbsp of ghee fried rice on the side is heavenly and culturally familiar to me. Also, basmati is relatively low GI rice, for those who care about that.

But I didn’t experiment with any of the RS stuff until after completing one year on keto, and totally 100% fat-adapted, sure that I could go about without just overeating fried rice which would’ve been sabotaging etc.

And it’s gone really well, the mental/emotional boost is beyond keto+beef liver supplementation, MCTs, and various other self-care things I do, so that’s been noticeable for me in combating/managing extreme stress in a mentally demanding job + domestic life. And, I’m maintaining and still slowly recomposing - very grateful.


(Edith) #14

I did buy some jasmine rice. I may be willing to give it a try.


#15

Ah Jasmine rice, so fragrant! Possible downside is that it’s about double higher than Basmati on the glycemic index - but maybe that doesn’t matter if it’s properly chilled and then fried? I really don’t know!


(Edith) #16

Huh. I thought white rice was white rice. Interesting.


(A fool and his bacon are soon parted) #17

When a study uses the word “significantly” it is usually in connection with the statistical significance. A statistically significant result can easily be clinically insignificant, however, which is the trouble with a lot of these studies. A statistically significant drop in whatever from 1.30 to 1.26, say, generally isn’t very helpful to the clinical situation.


#18

@ctviggen @JohnH thanks for your replies :slight_smile:

I’m histamine intolerant and my gut must have been a mess pre-keto. I connected a lot of symptoms towards the end of my SAD life (and it was sad, indeed ;)) and keto was my magic pill. I’m always looking for ways to somehow improve my gut, but maybe since I’m doing much better on keto, keto is doing that already and that should be enough? :thinking: I avoid a lot of veggies (histamine, oxalates, lectins), but I like my daily arugula+mache salad and occasional mushrooms, asparagus and cabbage.
I might try an experiment next year, maybe even try @SlowBurnMary way with basmati rice and keep it whole food.


#19

Here’s to 2020 n=1 experiments, and food as medicine - just make sure that rice is properly chilled first then fried up well in good fat to seal it with natural rubbery goodness for the road trip to the large intestine :sparkles:


#20

Cheers!! :slight_smile:
I remember you had a detailed post on how you prepare your rice, so I will definitely read it again and try your way.