Refeeds/ Recarbs Yes/No?

(Rob Grantham) #41

Yes i can get past the three hour mark without problems once I get to four hour in starting to feel on edge and by hour five I could pounce on a wild animal and eat it’s live beating heart from its chest… I think that’s part of the problem is gettingfood before I get to this point because I think the stress hormones kicking in is not good.

#42

Perhaps once your body gets used to the new, low bodyweight/fat then the intensity of the hunger will reduce? Might just take a little while.

#43

Have you posted a couple days sample meals to see if anybody catches anything that may be off? If you WANT to stay keto and only want carbs to see if something happens, obviously play with the good ones. If you want to try to walk between the worlds look into a Carb10 supplement. It’s for people lifting for post workout glycogen replenishment but it’s carbs that don’t cause a sugar/insulin spike and would allow you to test the waters and not screw up being keto. I use MTS Machine Carb 10, but there’s a handful of them at this point.

#44

I was curious about this, searched “Starvation Response” at that site but got too many results.

What’s the general gist of it?

Too few carries for too long hence a slower metabolic rate? Or something different/ more?

Thanks

(Alec) #45

Wow, dead bloody right, you look fanstastic. :clap::clap::clap:. Where did you start? [edit, ok, I saw you already posted 106kg to 76kg: great work!]

There seems to be a theoretical max number of calories you can withdraw from a lb of body fat, 31kcals per day from memory, @richard quoted the studies in other threads. These studies I think were on non-fat adapted people, and there was speculation the number could be higher for well fat adapated folks. But, the principle is there. If you fast, and you have low body fat, your body will start slowing down some operations that need calories (ref Fung).

(Ken) #46

I’d call a year long stall while still overweight a negative effect.

I’d also assert that someone who is unable to lose fat when trying to still has an incomplete understanding of Lipolysis.

(Ken) #47

Basically, but it can also include energy balance issues. It appears to correlate quite a bit with activity, the range going from those being fairly sedentary having fewer and less acute symptoms, to those with high klevels of activity such as athletes and bodybuilders experiencing more noticeable effects.

(Alec) #48

I think that’s the key point here. It feels right.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #49

Lipolysis nothing more nor less than the process of breaking up triglycerides into their component fatty acids. It is a necessary precursor to getting fat out of adipose tissue to be metabolized.

Up till recently, I assumed that lipolysis was the breakdown of fatty acids into water and carbon dioxide, and I still think that is what it should mean. Alas, my dictionary, that traitor, disagrees with me! :grin:

The breakdown of fatty acids is a very interesting topic, and I am not so sure that anyone really understands it, but I do know that it involves phosphorylation and acetyl CoA and reactive oxidative species. Not to mention the Krebs cycle, which they seem to be calling something different, these days. The only other thing I know is that the ketone bodies—acetoacetate, acetone, and β-hydroxybutyrate—are intermediate products of this process produced in the liver, and that β-hydroxybutyrate is not actually a ketone, even though it is counted as a ketone body. I certainly don’t understand fat metabolism, that is true, but on the other hand, I’m not sure one needs to understand the intricacies in order to be able to lose weight.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #50

This is not the detailed diagram I was looking for. In terms of terrain, this would be the 3500-foot view. But still, I thought people might find it interesting.

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(Rob Grantham) #51

Yep can do no worries… but really I’ve tracked myself out of curiosity and I’m not starving myself or overeating. My macros are also in range also for someone my size… I will keep a good diary today and post at the end of he day.

(Rob Grantham) #52

Thank you! Yes I think activity levels are telling for me. I always feel best in the morning when I wake and throughout the day my energy levels fade from activity. If I try to do some more demanding physical work it usually leaves me drained if I overdo it.

I did some number crunching based upon the figures you gave me and i can draw 800 cal a day from my body. I would assume that this is also burned more slowly so at times when I’m not eating for a few hours is when I would feel it most…

The question for me is what happens when you are not able to meet your energy quota from fat and no fuel is coming in from food? Does your body begin to break down lean tissue through gluconeogenesis?

Fairly recently I was doing some heavy gardening work for a few hours. I didn’t have time to eat so ate after around 5 hours… well I can tell you it ramped up my stress massively. Working physically without food in a lean state from my experience Is most definatly not a good idea. Especially as a fat burner.

(Rob Grantham) #53

I would tend to agree with the statement about activity levels. When I was ill recently no problems… I was laid in bed all day. It when I’m up and active I really start to feel it

(Rob Grantham) #54

Yes i think the diagram proves that the body’s need for glucose never really reduces… it simply becomes more efficient at using more fat. However it still pulls a considerable amount of lean mass for fuel in a fasted state

(Alec) #55

My understanding is that when the body sees a low resource situation coming it reduces output, meaning you start to feel tired (message to brain: go have a nap), and it starts shutting down body maintenance functions that burn calories. It may start burning protein/muscle, but Fung says this is really not significant until you really are starving over a long period with a low body fat %.

(Rob Grantham) #56

Yes! This! My energy levels are down a lot… this probably has reduced my bmr. I just have to eat more often most likely…

(Alec) #57

Rob
Eat when hungry. That’s the rule. Let your body decide what it needs.

But, seriously, I am not sure why I am advising you: you look like you are being WAY more successful than me here… :joy::joy::+1:

(Rob Grantham) #58

Thank you for reminding me… Most of my progress so far was made through using my brain but now I feel it’s more important to follow my insticts… This is something I really have to work on. Having been overweight my whole adult life In used to misinterpretation of hunger signals… either that or ignoring them. I really need to learn to follow my body. I would reply like to post my story one day from when I was a fat kid… It’s been a long haul

(Rob Grantham) #59

Ok so this morning I was hungry… so I ate… and I tried not to think about how much I ate other than I ate pork ribs. I ate until I was FULL then stopped. I’m still not hungry. I was overthinking/analysing what I ate rather than following my body…

I was sitting and worrying about… hmm maybe that’s enough protein… maybe I ate too much fat…

I’m going to try to eat as much as I want from fat and protein without tracking

(Ken) #60

The aspect of Lipolysis I am referring to goes far beyond the simple reaction of the breakdown of fat for energy. It is the concept of that reaction within the context of overall metabolics, specifically the effects upon and consequent secretion pattern and States of both the Orexigenic and Anorexigenic hormones.

It is very much an Evolutionary context, as the body is geared for maximum conservation in order to preserve energy for survival. That’s why there are often adaptation periods, as the body adjusts hormonal secretion patterns to maximize energy use, both ingested as well as stored, in order to provide the best opportunity for survival.

Going one step farther, which is the crux of what we are really talking about, is the issue of Survival vs. Optimization. Eating VLCHF chronically will certainly enable you to survive, even in reasonably good health, but is not necessarily optimal, depending on activity level. Obviously Mankind evolved primarily on a fat based diet, but also on periodic carbs, and we developed a mechanism to utilize them efficiently and store the excess energy in both the short and long term, using first glycogen and then converting the excess to fat. We also developed the hormonal secretion patterns to regulate these processes.

To deny these processes and the role of limited and periodic carb intake really removes a valuable tool as far as nutritional optimization.