Rebuilding Metabolism

#21

Yeah, it’s a big puzzle for me to try and understand what the heck is happening. I’m fat adapted and in ketosis. But, I cannot eat sticks of butter on top of “normal” meals and expect my metabolism to increase relative to added fat consumed. And, I dont “excrete” the extra fat my body doesn’t need…i will add it to my ass. Luckily, there is a feeling of nausea that stops me from overeating fat.But, if I override that nausea and force sticks of butter down my throat, I will add mass to my ass. So, in my search trying to figure out where the bottleneck is in the metabolic rate issue, I came across interesting aspects of mitochondria and what they do under different situations. The fact that our bodies avoid the destruction of mitochondria but consume the rest of cellular mass during autophagy, which then results in an increased mitochondria proportion, explains why people feel energized during extended fasting. From an evolutionary perspective, it makes sense. You need energy to go hunt for food. I think this same phenomenon is leveraged to increase metabolic rate. And after the fast, you must feast. Turning on you digestion, and going in to repair and rebuild around the autophaged parts needs sufficient material and energy. If you don’t supply the feast for the digestion start up and rebuild, the body screws with your metabolism again and dials it back down.

I dunno. This is how I am reading the science and experiencing my body’s reaction to food and fasting. I’m still doing more reading and trying to understand better.

#22

No one is disputing increased energy output with ketogenic diets. The issue is what mechanism increases the metabolic rate? Eating a ketogenic diet does not put someone in a perpetual increase of metabolic rate. Maybe a bit at the beginning of fat loss journey. But, then plateaus happen. Increasing sticks of butter eaten per day will not result in a direct relationship with metabolic rate increase. If thats the case, i would have forced myself to have eaten cases of butter per day long ago. So the question is…why do these plateaus happen? What mechanisms allow metabolic rate to continue to increase?

(Blyss (Old @Charmaine)) #23

I think you plan to fast the day before in anticipation of having carbs is a proactive decision. Plus the world didn’t spin off its axis and crash into the moon and roll over on Mars… so I count it as a win. :smiley:

(eat more) #24

i generally like puzzles…this one is annoying me lol

my fat has been up and i seem to be more hungry, more often…so i’m going to have to reevaluate…again :joy:
(there could be something else that isn’t right for me…it’s not carbs but it could be protein too low)

(Alex Dipego) #25

I think the miss step here is the thinking of raising intake above optimization. We know if we don’t provide enough energy then not everything turns on and runs optimally. If I were to flood the system with a ton of extra energy it would react oddly and probably store. By adding slowly I’m knocking on the doors saying, “hey just checking if you’re home.” The doors will open and more ATP production which means more energy for bodily functions to turn on. I don’t think I can add forerver. I think I can add to optimize for my lifestyle. If I’m 155lbs of LBM my energy needs are different than the person next to me at 90lbs LBM. I think by signaling the need for more energy the body adapts, but I don’t think you can hammer it to adapt but take it easy.

I would love to 3 day fast or more but metabolically I can’t and it’s stressful. I know that’s the point, but it shouldn’t be this hard. This tells me I have some issues that I need fixed. So I’m providing my body the energy it needs to fix it.

(David) #26

The beauty of this is that, almost regardless of the science, the proof of the pudding is in the eating . The outcome is what is important and measuring it will demonstrate whether the overall method is, or isn’t, effective. Good luck with it.

(bulkbiker) #27

I’m guessing you know this already but have you seen the Jason Wittrock 4000cal a day experiment on his you tube channel?
He deliberately overate for 3 weeks to disprove CICO. Lost a bit of weight and reduced his body fat (only by a very small amount). Very interesting results.

#28

This is the point that I included in my edit, but didn’t make clear in the previous body. I think that just using diet, someone could probably repair metabolic damage and raise BMR to their optimal level, but to go above that would require significant enhancements through exercise and the repair that comes about through autophagy by fasting.

Emphasis added by me for context.

@Fiorella, I wouldn’t disagree with what you’re saying because at some point I think if we isolated the increased dietary intake to be calories stripped of ALL nutrition, it would be CICO, so I personally wouldn’t use empty calories, but instead go for nutrient-dense sources of fat, like egg yolks, while still considering overall protein intake.

Good catch! I believe that your re-parsing of the wording contained in this thread is correct. It’s not that increased fat will increase metabolism, but the combined efforts of increasing BMR will require a fuel source and while eating ketogenically, the best source is fat.

Okay, I’m confident that this is hyperbole and you realize the discussion here is more about adding an extra 1/2 tbsp, then 1 tbsp, etc. while rebuilding metabolism and not jumping in by eating the entire stick. :wink:

Current information from Dr. Benjamin Bikman is showing that BHB encourages metabolically-inactive (endocrinologically-active) white fat to be have like the metabolically active brown fat and there’s far more white fat. In other words, ketones encourage fat cells that would normally just store fat, to actually start burning it, which would increase metabolism.

#29

I’m starting to form the idea that we are not talking about the same thing.

I think the OP stated they consume 2400 cal daily (this isn’t clear, as it was stated that this was their current eating rate and their BMR…two separate things…but, ok, I will assume OP meant they eat around 2400 cal per day). The OP’s goal is to increase daily consumption to 3400 cal (stated as the most important goal). Secondary goal to to lose a bit of weight (between 15 to 20 lbs). The primary goal is being able to eat a lot more food (calorie-wise), as the OP recalls in his younger years feeling much more energetic…so, he wants that feeling back.

So…having clarified that, here is my question:

What is preventing the OP from eating 3400 cal today?

#30

CRM - Calorie-Restricted Metabolism

I agree that the thread is covering the idea of rebuilding metabolism from too many perspectives 1) a CRM and trying to raise it to pre-damaged levels through diet only, ie. just eating more fat, which seems to be the initial implication of the OP 2) a CRM by adding exercise and fasting, 3) a normal metabolism and increasing metabolism above normal, and 4) some additional permutations of the first 3 listed including variations from losing, maintaining or gaining weight whether exercising or not, fasting or not. It’s getting confusing.

I agree that at a fundamental level, an important part of the mechanism for increasing metabolism is increasing mitochondria and their functioning, so using more energy is an effect, whether that’s coming from increased dietary fat (exogenous) or burning body fat (endogenous), those perspectives are getting all jumbled together and make a variety of posts appear to be mis-leading if one approaches it from certain viewpoint.

I sometimes eat 3,400 cal per day, but definitely not my average, and I would clarify that my intent and process is to do whatever it takes to rebuild my metabolism so those calories are not being partitioned to fat storage and instead burned for energy, but I wouldn’t expect someone to jump to that level overnight and constantly evaluating their progress along the way. Even @Daisy recently added more fat simulating an extra BPC per day and didn’t gain weight, but I suspect that other people would have a problem, so the response is individualized.

(Alex Dipego) #31

What’s stopping me is I can’t handle a total increase of 3400 off the bat without adding weight. I could do it for awhile and eventually even out but this thread is about the smaller adjustment to get to that optimized state without putting on weight.

Because of my wonky metabolism it needs to be slower increases, but someone else may be able to up there’s faster.

(eat more) #32

this is where i got tripped up :slight_smile:
i was already factoring in (assuming) exercise, increasing muscle, and fasting as tools to go above any “setpoint”…(thinking out loud here) and where exactly does this predetermined “setpoint” come from? from hormones and habits. i think it is all malleable

my thinking is/was if we can easily reduce our BMR through calorie restriction and activity then why not the opposite?

isn’t your bf% pretty low to begin with?
just throwing this out there (and you’ve probably already considered it and/or done it :slight_smile: )
have you done an egg or fat fast in place of a “true fast”?
plugged your numbers into richard’s calculator?
not that you were looking for solutions…it just came to mind

#33

Agreed. :slight_smile:

The only explicit qualification is already included in the statement that if calorie-restriction caused the reduction in BMR, then eating ketogenically where hormones tend to normalize while slowly raising calories will restore the BMR to the previous baseline.

I would like to emphasis that these aren’t theoretical, pure calories, but should contain micronutrients appropriate to the individual, whatever that is for them - lately I’ve been favoring egg yolks until I reach my protein allotment and then switching it up with other high-fat sources.

For folks who are at their optimal BMR and not experiencing reduction from calorie-restriction, then raising BMR above that will require more than dietary intervention, such as exercise and fasting which increase and strengthen the mitochondria as well as muscle.

(Alex Dipego) #34

Which is where I’m locked up. I’ve used the calculated I’m sitting around 600-700 cal a day from BF if/when fasting which is not nearly sufficient. I think there is another factor involved though but this is me speculating.

I think when lean you can indeed fast without worrying your BF isn’t high enough due to an optimized metabolism. If everything is healthy then there are no major hiccups. I’ve fat fasted before and it gives me cravings though this could be due to work stress. I work in the food industry this am surrounded by food every hour of the day when I’m not sleeping. That ontop of regular work stresses could make it difficult for me in general until I get a better work stress balance. That’s why I think this thread is getting jumbled (I like it) but so many things can be going on that we can’t specifically attribute it to one singular thing. We can only track the patterns.

#35

160
6’3"

holy jeez get that man a pot roast!!!

(Jennifer) #36

Lol - yeah, I think my calfs are bigger than his thighs… He works at UPS in a large distribution warehouse and usually puts in 20-22k steps a day. Plus he bikes a few times a week, mountain, and road. He isn’t out competing, but he is constantly moving.

He has given up grains and most carbs, but is still using a little bit of sugar. He was struggling to get in enough calories (and was getting a little too thin) until I introduced him to BPCs, and now he drinks 2-3 a day. Lol…

(Bart) #37

I am at 10.7% body fat at the moment and have been as low as in the 9% range and did it with 90% diet. I am no where near pro-athlete level. CICO played only a minor roll in my going from 30% to 9%. I was paying attention to it the first few months. I do not believe I wrecked my metabolism in any sort of way. I am able to eat keto at calories way about my BRM estimates and maintain body wait.

Mark Sisson is 62 years old and at 9% body fat and looks super healthy. He pretty much just plays ultimate frisbee now. He maintains mainly via his primal diet.

People need to look at body fat percentages in another way as well… adding lean mass. Say a person has 20 pounds of fat and is 10% body fat. If they add 10 pounds of lean mass and still maintain the same 20 pounds of fat, their body fat percentage is still going drop.

200 lb person with 20 pounds of fat and 10% body fat, goes up to 210 with the same 20 pounds of fat their new body fat percent is 9.5%.

Losing fat is not the only way to lower body fat percent,

Just some of my thoughts and observations.

(ianrobo) #38

ah of course ever thought of that !

(Alex Dipego) #39

Okay! Week 2 was weird!

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I had a sweeping schedule at work that really just threw my daily routine to hell. I had less activity overall so I actually wasn’t that hungry. I didn’t force feed myself and I averaged roughly 2200 a day with a week total of 15645. Much less than less week and this I dropped just under 3 lbs. I came in at 174.8lbs this morning.

Good a bad signs to this but let’s look at the facts. Two days I ate over my goal but they all followed lower intake days. Could stress have been a factor? Hell yes. My sleep was averaging 4hrs a night atop of the 14hr work days. It became hard and yes was less activity for me. I normally run 3-4 times a week for 15mins and that didn’t happen. I kind of want to call this an off week because if I do the math I should be able to hit 20,000 this week but that means I’ll be stagnant. If I still drop I should be moving in the right direction. The big question is though did I stumble on something that benefits me metabolically more than my regular undulating intake? Time will tell.

#40

Ouch, studies show that lost sleep results in short-term insulin resistance equivalent to that of T2DM, so that would definitely interfere with your efforts, but good job logging and great attitude.

I’m beginning to see more frequent daily intakes of 2,500+ calories and yesterday had 3,000+ and still maintaining the same body weight. However, I regularly suffer from lack of sleep, so I can sympathize with the setbacks it can cause, but what I’m find is that average sleep is increasing over time, although I’m not ready to attribute it to any metabolism-rebuilding efforts.