Raising my abysmal RMR before a fast

(Suzanne Leigh) #1

Hi All,
I’ve read tons of posts about boosting metabolism & eating to satiety (thanks to those who so willingly share) but i’ve got a question I haven’t seen answered.

Just learned my RMR is only 1100 calories/day. I’m 50yo, 5’4", 131 pounds. I weight train + conditioning 4-5 days/week (moderate effort). Fasting insulin < 2 as of a year ago. At that time I was the fittest/leanest of my life, eating about 1800 calories/day, LCHF (intermittent ketosis). Started gaining body fat last August, reached El Tubbo by November. My knee-jerk was calorie restriction–I KNOW it’s bad, but I was scared. I now average around 1400kcal/day (100g+ fat, low carb, mod protein). I finally started losing weight last month, partly from a water fast, partly from improved thyroid & sex hormones and better digestion. I no longer feel the need to calorie restrict, but I’m fully sated at that intake.

I start an extended water fast on March 3 (44.5 pounds of fat to sustain me). Can anyone offer advice on how best to raise my metabolism in the short window prior to the fast? I’m not sure feast/fast/feast makes sense this close to an EF (maybe it’s fine, dunno). I could just feast, but not keen to gain weight–just in my jeans after months of stretch pants. And, in general, what would ‘feast’ mean for me?? I’m fully sated at an average of 1400 calories.

Any thoughts, ideas, wisdom, research you can share would be much appreciated!

Can't get enough calories
(Suzanne Leigh) #2

Hmmmm…crickets…

Perhaps I asked a dumb question, OR a question that’s unanswerable: too specific to my physiology and too narrow a timeframe.

My normal MO for health decisions is feasting on reams of research studies, personal anecdotes, podcasts and n=1 experiments. All great in moderation, but in huge quantities, possibly making me ‘data resistant’ i.e. deaf to my own wisdom.

I took some time to ask myself what I thought I should do before the next extended fast. I decided to put down my food scales and food tracking app and listen to my body’s desires re how much I should eat. That might mean blowing up some food rules. Eating twice the fat I normally eat. Eating once a day, or 3 times/day. I decided I’m going to listen (and learn).

I’ll post again if anything groundbreaking happens during this process. if not, I’ll start a new thread from True North.

(Beth) #3

Hi, I like your idea of eating to satiety and listening to your body.

This article could help you in deciding if extended water fasting is right for you given your lean body mass and your desire to increase your BMR. After reading it, my take away, perhaps incorrect, is that you can only draw about 1400 calories from your fat if you are indeed carrying 45 lbs. of fat. If you burn more than that you may end up unintentionally making your BMR slow down.

(Suzanne Leigh) #4

Hey bej10,
Thanks much for your reply.

As you say, based on my BF I can release 1400 cals of fat/day, a 300 cal surplus from my BMR of 1100.

My goal was to raise my BMR close to that 1400 level, so I don’t leave 300 calories/day ‘on the table’. I have no idea if my current plan of eating to satiety will help me do that, or if I’ll (gulp) gain even more fat before the fast. Only one way to find out…:slight_smile:

(Rob) #5

Definitely not dumb but definitely a holy grail type question. If we knew the definitive answer to this, we’d all be doing it.

I do not have the answer but these are some threads to start pulling on.

  1. Building muscle mass - definitely an RMR builder - focus on lifting to failure and HIIT if you want.

  2. ‘Over-eating’ - ie going above your RMR (you’re already on this as an idea I think). The major problem is whether it works and how long it takes with what interim consequences.

  3. Fasting - some claim that (counter-intuitively) this will help build RMR - I have no idea on this one.

Best of luck!

(Suzanne Leigh) #6

Many thank for your response. I appreciate your input here, and on many threads.

I weight train + HIT 4-6 days/week for almost 3 years. I’ve eaten LCHF for 2+ years, but sometimes eat too many veg and/or much protein to stay in ketosis.

1 year ago I was at my leanest, eating 1800 calories/day. Then everything went to hell. I’ve been making adjustments, including a water fast this January, and I’ve improved, but the low BMR was a gut punch.

I’ve got plenty of body fat to burn, so why is my BMR so low?

I’m not always in ketosis, so that’s remedy #1 (along with eating to satiety). I use IF daily, either OMAD or 16:8. Hopefully this upcoming extended fast will boost my BMR. Even if it doesn’t, it should get rid of some of this excess body fat :grin:

(Rob) #7

Sorry, I should have looked at your history a bit further…

I saw this and found it interesting. It goes beyond the RMR to the TDEE which may be more relevant to your situation…
https://www.acefitness.org/certifiednewsarticle/2882/resting-metabolic-rate-best-ways-to-measure-it-and/
Maybe a focus on the other elements of the TDEE rather than just the RMR might be worth pursuing. One of which may be…

…something I’m looking into as well… brown fat


This interview with Rhonda Patrick is full of interesting stuff. The transcript is long and wide ranging but about 4 questions down is heat therapy and the next one is cold therapy and the alternation of each.

Also look into Wim Hof - his method is basic but astounding and likely to achieve brown fat production. He has a low cost app you get you into it. It is basically hyperventilation, holding your breath, basic stress/tension exercise and cold therapy. He can get civilian into walking up a snowy mountain in their skivvies (underwear) in a week. Worth investigating…

(Suzanne Leigh) #8

Thanks!! I’ll check all these out. I met Wim Hoff last summer in Barcelona (See pic)

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and one of my best friends ice hiked with him in Poland just a few months ago. She said it was friggin COLD but amazing. She and I and a few others used to meet 2xweek to do IR saunas followed by full immersion in ice baths. I always thought I’d wake up all brown-fatted and leaner, but I never saw a change. It might work for me now that I’ve got more fat to work with.

I’ll check out all these links. Many thanks!

(Rob) #9

WOW! I am so impressed with you meeting the man himself!

You have tried a LOT of stuff! Any concerns about the RMR calculation? Worth a second test?

Then we are into the realms of medical issues. Hypothyroid? I’m about tapped out though…

(Suzanne Leigh) #10

Wim is a character!! And me, I’m a biohacking geek. Some hacks have been extraordinary, like keto, which cured my sleeping disorder of 20+ years and allowed me to stop taking massive doses of Modafinil (i’ll post on that at some time).

The BMR test is suspect. Performed by Uni students, at 8am; they admitted they had ‘technical difficulties’ :face_with_raised_eyebrow:. But it may be correct, maybe I tanked my BMR when I started calorie restricting last fall. I’m currently in Smalltown USA so Uni testing is the only option. I’d like to do a post-fast BMR + body composition in NorCal. If anyone has suggestions for reasonably priced options (or better yet, a scientist/ lab who needs a compliant Guinea pig) I’d love to know.

I’ve been on thyroid meds for years. When I ballooned last fall my TSH had dropped to .006. Massive hyper, but all symptoms were hypo and my T3 was low, reverse T3 high. As of 1-31-18 TSH was .5, just back in ‘normal’ range. Actually, everything on the panel was in normal range for the 1st time in 2+ years. I attribute the improvement to a change in meds on 12-15-17 AND to my water fast that started 1-16-18.

(Rob) #11

I’ve enjoyed this conversation a lot since in (fruitlessly :grin:) trying to help I have learned so much more. Your journey so far and to come will be very instructive to many people here so please post the various elements of your experience as an when you feel like it.

Best of luck. I’ll be following your story :crossed_fingers:

PS Is that you in your profile pic? If so, (or regardless) I cannot imagine having that, losing it and struggling so hard to get it back.

(Suzanne Leigh) #12

Great convo. Love getting education & support from like minded people.

Yes, that’s me in the profile pic. I wasn’t quite at my leanest then, but close. I improved for several more months, hit a plateau, then slowly started gaining fat. It was crazy, because I wasn’t doing anything differently and I couldn’t figure out what was backfiring. Over the course of a few months my waist disappeared, then I got thicker and thicker in the middle, then fatter allover. Simultaneously I lost strength & muscle til finally I looked 4-5 months pregnant and my waist had grown by 6". A humbling experience :smirk:

The good news is, the fat gain made me face a fear. A fear that didn’t kill me or cause me to lose the love of my family and friends. It made me a more empathetic human, so I call it a blessing. AND…I’m happy that it’s slowly on its way out of town.

(Rob) #14

This is so weird. You probably know as much as you can but it would seem to me that finding out the cause for your unexpected weight gain under similar conditions to your loss/lean regime would be the most obvious basis for formulating a strategy.

(Suzanne Leigh) #15

Can I ask, what made you do a 30 day fast if you 52kg at 5’6" and a body fat below 17%? And when you say it took you a year to recover, what happened and why did you love it so much? I’m fascinated!!

According to a recent bod-pod, I’m now 34% body fat. I was 24% last year by dexa, and as low as 18% by calipers, so you can imagine 34% felt…like a perpetually rainy day. It forced me to look inside myself and ask some tough questions about priorities, and to surrender to the fact that sometimes ‘doing everything right’ doesn’t stop the physiology from inserting its own agenda. I’d just gotten good test results from a vag ultrasound, thyroid ultrasound, colonoscopy and mammogram, so I decided to focus on gratitude: whatever was making me fat probably wasn’t going to kill me. The weight gain convinced me to do a fast, which I doubt I would have ever considered otherwise (2016-2017 I ate 5 small meals/day, all weighed and measured, with proper pre-workout nutrition, blah, blah, blah). Said fast gave me time and space in solitude and helped me unhook from food in a way I didn’t know was possible. So, all in all, the fat served a purpose. And as I said, it’s starting to fade away. i can now wear some of my own clothes :slight_smile:

Agreed, unfortunately, if the causal factors aren’t obvious, or if they’re produced by several coinciding issues, it’s like finding a needle in a haystack. THAT’s what appeals to me most about fasting…it can supposedly right many wrongs with one easy process. I leave for True North a week from tomorrow :-):star_struck:

(Suzanne Leigh) #17

I’d say!! Thanks for sharing this overview of your experience and outcome (happy that your PCOS has been silenced!). Your EF sounds amazing but the year long recovery that followed–hard yards. And this sounds like a very stringent training program during recovery:

I’ve only done one, much shorter, water fast, and had to ease back into the gym. I had no endurance. Now, a month later, I’m stronger and have good recovery, but I’m only training 1 hour/day 4-5 days/week plus some long hill walks. How in the world did you tain 3-6 hours/day after that long fast? You must be superhuman :astonished:

My thyroid was way off. Tests indicated massive hyperthyroidism, but my symptoms were hypo. My sex hormones were incredibly elevated, especially Estrogen and Testosterone (I was taking HRT for about 16 months prior, which I stopped cold turkey when I got the bloodwork). I had been experiencing constipation for about 2 years that got really bad by August 2017, which is when the weight gain started. My intuition tells me I was experiencing elevated cortisol. I was living with my clients for 30 days at a time (in-house ‘convert to keto’ specialist). While I loved them, and loved the work and experience, not having my own space was extremely taxing to my system. So I think it was just an unfortunate confluence of many factors. But again, it was a gift in that it helped me re-evaluate and gave me motivation to start fasting.

While my main goal with the upcoming fast (I’ll start next Friday, March 3, and shoot for 10-14 days) is to cure my underlying health problems, a secondary goal is to regain my normal weight and body composition.

Agree 100%. Hard to balance training, eating healthy and fasting versus obsessing about optimization and hitting that perfect body composition.

Many thanks, Zoe!! You’re a wonderful woman. So nice to connect with you on here. I’ll start a new thread from my fast. I’m going to a place called True North to do this one. I felt like such crap during the last one, I want some practiced eyes to watch over me.

(Suzanne Leigh) #19

Thanks so much for your support, Zoe. I’ve got a couple of questions re what you wrote above:

  1. “remember you will lose lean muscle mass and will be a similar composition” As I understand the research, fasting preserves lean muscle mass. According to Dr. Fung, sugar-burners catabolise protein (muscle) in the first 32-36ish hours, and I presume those who are keto-adapted won’t have this largely catabolic phase. I know a small amount of lean tissue is catabolized during the fast, but I’ve been thinking it’s mostly ‘junk’ protein that will be re-purposed during autophagy versus muscle mass. Are you telling me you lose as much muscle as fat during your fasts?

  2. “When you gain, make sure lean gains” YES!! That is absolutely the goal, gaining back strong muscles and using the HGH, stem cells and BDNF to my advantage. But here’s a question, how do I make sure the gains I make are ‘lean gains’? True North is (gulp) vegan with a NO SOS policy, i.e. no sugar, salt or oil. I’ll only re-feed there for a few days but during those days I’ll have only organic fruit and veggies (big change since I’ve eaten basically no fruit other than avo and olives in the past 2+ years) and maybe, at the end, some starchier veggies. NOT what I ordinarily eat. I’m worried I will gain body fat, but it’ll only be a few days. What is your method of ensuring gains are ‘lean’? Too much protein kicks me out of ketosis, so I’m torn about protein requirements. Are they greater after an extended fast?

Thanks for sharing your experience!

(Suzanne Leigh) #21

Thanks so much, as always, for the great info!!

I’m going to a fasting facility for 2 reasons: 1) I don’t currently have my own home, so I don’t have a personal space in which to fast. I literally HAVE to pay for a place to fast…either in an apartment or hotel, or in a facility like TN. The price differential for TN is hardly more than a regular hotel, plus 2) it allows me to take the medical concerns off my conscience and place them in the hands of pros. The last fast I had terrible pain in my lower back that radiated down both legs. I literally writhed with pain for about 20 straight hours. That’s what helped me decide to break the fast–I was worried I was doing myself some harm. At TN I can get bloodwork done etc so I’ll know if I should break the fast or push through. To my knowledge there are only 2 medically supervised, year-around fasting facilities in the US. True North is one of them and I’ve not heard any negatives (though I’m sure some exist). I’ve heard LOTS of negatives about the places in Costa Rico etc.

I now understand your lean muscle loss: you didn’t have enough fat to sustain your fast. Based on my current body fat via BodPod, I should be able to liberate 1400 calories per day from fat stores and my BMR is only 1100, so theoretically if I enter the fast already in ketosis, I should be able to keep burning my own fat to fully run my metabolism, less the small amount of protein needed to be broken down for glucose. That said, nothing is ever that easy :slight_smile: I really hope I don’t lose muscle. I’ve worked hard for 3 years to build the muscle I’ve got. I was just reading an article about being too insulin sensitive–something I’ve never considered-- and I wonder if that’s part of my problem with muscle building and recovery. My fasting insulin is <2, which is very low, yet my fasting blood glucose is sometimes in the 90’s, quite high given my diet and training, and my Trig/HDL ratio is often below .5. These factors together, according to the article, could mean I’m too insulin sensitive. I’ll put a link to the article below if anyone is interested.

https://www.paleofx.com/insulin-sensitivity-when-good-thing-becomes-too-much/

It’s all a work in progress, you know. Thanks again for your wonderful info. Glad you were able to get your muscles and health back. You should write a book!