Quick question about high fat

(Jack Brien) #1

Must keto diet be high fat? I’m not saying low fat or lower fat. Due to a disagreement on FB on whether protein must be restricted and keto must be high fat. My argument is opinions differ and keto’s only requirement is low carb (and thus ketosis).

(MelissaH) #2

Yes keto is high fat, moderate protein, low carb. The fat is what is keeps you satiated. Weird concept I know but keto isn’t keto without the fat. I type this as I’m drinking my fat coffee😊. 3 lbs down this week. It works Santa

#3

In this case “opinions” don’t matter. ketosis can be brought about in may ways (calorie reduction, fasting, a high fat diet) but the Ketogenic Diet by definition is a HIGH FAT, moderate protein (doesn’t mean restrict it necessarily) very low carb diet.

#4

Keto CAN be high in fat but, it doesn’t HAVE to be.
The high fat content really helps to make you feel full, so you don’t get too hungry between meals. If you never feel hungry, you can try reducing the fat content and see what happens.

Of course, if you have a high fat content and everything is working for you…why change :wink:

(Chris) #5

You have to do what works for you. Too much fat will absolutely cause you to store some of it, and too much fat in a sitting will cause nausea. MOST people, here, or on facebook, or wherever you like, are protein deficient anyway and wouldn’t even hit “too much” levels if they tried.

I ate actual high fat zero carb for 3 months straight and definitely gained fat.

(Jack Brien) #6

Whose definition is that? Opinions matter when they are based on research, not when based on dogma, which is what I’m arguing against. Bikman research shows that protein -> gluconeogenesis as detrimental to ketosis is only relevant to those on a SAD diet or with deranged blood sugars or T2 (presuming I have this correct?)

#7

words have meanings. we don’t get to just arbitrarily define what we want them to mean. that’s what a “ketogenic diet” means. you might as well ask why the definition of protein is what it is. or blue. or diarrhea.

your are welcome to do whatever you want, eat however you like, etc but you don’t get to redefine words just because or because you don’t like it.

otherwise it would be impossible to communicate.

would you tell a vegan they can eat meat on a vegan diet because Bikman said so?

(Doug) #8

Jack, I think that is correct, as the insulin/glucagon ratios are so markedly (incredibly, really) different between people eating a large amount of carbohydrates and those eating a very small amount.

It’s not a super-simple deal (at least in my opinion) but a very interesting one. Eating very low-carb means that gluconeogenesis is already going on - the body burning fat to do it. It does not need to use protein for fuel. The insulin/glucagon ratio is vastly lower than with a SAD diet, and necessary for the production of ketones. In this case, the body is very reluctant to send digested protein into the bloodstream for use as cellular fuel, since that will markedly increase insulin secretion, and that will slow or stop the liver’s production of glucose - which a few parts of the body definitely have to have.

Even for Type 2 diabetics and those with deranged metabolisms, moderate or “high” protein is not necessarily to be feared. With a ~1000 calorie per day surplus, moderate/high protein did not mean increased fat gain, versus low protein. (First link, below.) What it did mean was higher resting metabolism and an increase in lean body mass.

Type 1 and 2 diabetics have a greater glucagon response to protein than do non-diabetics, in fact. And here’s a quote from the 2nd link I’ll post: “a number of researchers showed that the ingestion of protein by subjects with and without diabetes did not result in an increase in blood glucose levels.” That sounds fairly profound to me.

Not saying this will hold true with any amount of protein - it would be interesting to see what happens with truly massive intake. Yet I have yet to see anything making the case that even ‘normal’ “high protein” intake will necessarily be a bad thing for people in general - again, regardless of diabetes/crazy metabolism or not.

http://journal.diabetes.org/diabetesspectrum/00v13n3/pg132.htm

#9

But that fat can be table fat (dietary/exogenous) or body fat (stored fat/endogenous), right? Doesn’t have to be extra dietary fat.

I’m kind of a newb here, but I’ve never heard that ketosis can be initiated based on reducing calories or by simply increasing fats. It is my understand that ketosis is influenced almost entirely by the amount of carbs you’re getting. Maybe I’m wrong and I’m sure some of the vets on here will help clarify!

(Chris) #10

From everything I’ve seen personally, yes. I haven’t heard of an obese person suffering rabbit starvation, but I’m open to discussing it.

(Jack Brien) #11

Ketosis can certainly be induced by reduction of calories, that’s how fasting works. The Cambridge diet is also based on inducing ketosis in this way, just with very low calorie meals (I certainly don’t recommend that, by the way). More fat? Well with the carbs, that’s just going to do the opposite and that way lies insulin resistance

(Jack Brien) #12

Language is constantly evolving. Even vegans argue about what you need to do to be a vegan. The definition of a keto diet, I guess, would have been defined by the guys who created those god awful epilepsy treatments and they bear little resemblance to a whole food low carb diet that most of follow.

(Jack Brien) #13

Blimey, what you trying to do to me? I’ve been punched in the head several times this evening and thrown on the floor so not sure my brain is up to absorbing that lot! :exploding_head:

(Candy Lind) #14

There are many opinions on the right level of protein, tons of stuff in these forums already about it. Same with fat, but the whole idea of keto is to replace the carbs you were eating with fat. When you are just starting, it’s important to eat “to satiety” because you are likely trying to overcome insulin resistance and you also need to “retrain” your satiety signals. Once you are fat-adapted & have reasonably normal satiety signals, if you have weight to lose, then you naturally eat less and your body goes to its fat stores. YOUR fat is counted in that high fat, ya know. :grin:

(Central Florida Bob ) #15

From what I can tell, this is exactly right. Dr. Westman tells the story that because his clinic at Duke is successful, he gets visiting doctors from all over. One of his stories is one of the doctors asked him, “you mean it’s all about the carbs?” and the answer is “yeah, it’s all about the carbs”. You don’t need add fat if you have plenty to fuel yourself, but don’t go hungry. Eat to satiety. Most people automatically restrict the amount they eat and burn their own fat.

He’s a lot of fun to listen to talking about food quality, grass-fed beef and all. Almost as much fun as Dr. Ballerstedt (the Ruminati).

Dr. Phinney does a full graphic on how when you’re losing weight, the percent of fat in the diet is lower and the rest of the fat comes from your body and when you’re at your goal weight, more fat comes from the diet and less from you body.

#16

So I could be getting 100% of my calories from carbohydrates and as long as that total number of calories/day is low enough, it will still put me in ketosis? (note: I have no interest in doing this, I’m just curious!)

#17

Keto is about carb restriction. Everything else is negotiable. :wink:

(MelissaH) #18

Keto version of the fast mimicking diet will put you in ketosis. It’s basically all fat and reduced calories for 5 days. Two avocados and 2 green drinks a day. It does what it says. You may feel like punching someone by the end of it but it works

(Running from stupidity) #19

So much this. A lot of people seem to think “fat” means “butter, and lots of it.” Now, I love butter, but the reality is that I have a massive fat store MUCH closer to home, and I’m carrying it around with me every day. So, once I’m fat adapted, I can use THAT as (part of/a large part of) my fat macros.

Aye. I’m in the same boat as you, exactly.

Hey, that’s part of the keto WOE as well, good work on complying :slight_smile:

(Wendy) #20

That’s my thoughts. :hugs: