Quick question about high fat

#21

not really, if you are eating a 100% protein diet and happen to be burning bodyfat because of it you will be in ketosis but its not a ketogenic diet, its a high protein diet.

if you don’t have any bodyfat to burn you will not make ketones. is it still a ketogenic diet then?

its silly to name all the things (or strategies) that results in a particular end game the same. it makes language and context meaningless.

following your logic, fasting is a ketogenic diet. we don’t call it that we call it fasting.

you can eat a very low calorie, 100% carbohydrate diet and be in ketosis. is that a ketogenic diet then?

this whole thing is silly. the ketogenic diet was defined over a century ago and it is what it is. it has never been anything other but a high fat diet, moderate (not high, or low) protein, and very low carbohydrate diet. period.

now excuse me as i go to the hospital to gas up my car, then i’m going to stop by the baseball diamond to get some groceries to feed my footstools.

(Carpe salata!) #22

That would be ketogenic if you were eating fat to satiety - the body would use the dietary fat rather than body-fat.

Diet is describing what you eat, so fasting is not a diet.

a low calorie 100% carb diet doesn’t have ‘moderate protein’ so no.

Not silly, semantic :thinking:

(Terence Dean) #23

Dr Phinney explains the role of fat in a ketogenic diet quite well, typically most people new to this way of eating (WOE) find it very difficult to eat so much fat.

We are reducing carbs dramatically to get into a state of nutritional ketosis, protein should be moderate, which really only leaves fat as the only means of maintaining enough calories to meet the body’s daily energy needs. So it makes total sense that if you reduce carbs that low, and are restricted by how much protein you can eat, that only leaves fat to make up the balance.

Quote about protein:

“We need enough protein to maintain healthy function of our organs but not so much that it raises insulin levels.”

(Jack Brien) #24

Our hospital has electric hookups now, one of the girls at work is very excited to be able to gas up her car. I’d skip the food at the baseball though, probably just hot dogs and soda. Footstools? Is that some wierd pet you have? :joy:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #25

@Jack_Brien The main requirement for getting into nutritional ketosis is to lower insulin enough to permit the liver to manufacture ketone bodies and adipose tissue to make fatty acids available for metabolism. This is the prelude to eventual fat-adaptation, in which the muscles used fatty acids as their primary fuel, saving glucose and ketone bodies (both made in the liver) for those cells and organs that prefer or must have them. (The red blood cells must have glucose, most other organs, and especially the brain, prefer ketone bodies even if they can utilize glucose.)

Lowering carbohydrate intake means replacing those calories with calories from another source. Protein is essential, even though it stimulates insulin production too, so we want to eat a reasonable amount (there is a wide range, so eating the precise amount is not crucial) without overdoing it. This leaves fat as the major source of calories, since it hardly stimulates insulin secretion at all. It is not fat per se, that is required (although there are two types of fat that are essential), but the calories. Even in the absence of carbohydrate, the body needs a certain amount of energy intake in order to be willing to metabolize excess stored fat (which is what many people really care about).

In sum, it is not that fat is magical, it’s that it’s a safe source of calories, and our calories have to come from somewhere.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #26

Not precisely. First, we can’t live on carbohydrate alone; there are a number of essential amino acids and two essential fats that must be present in our daily intake, because the human body can’t make them.

But even that aside, suppose someone could get into ketosis eating as much as, say, 50 g of carbohydrate, do you think it would it be possible to live on 50 g × 4 cal/g = 200 cal a day?

(Raj Seth) #27

I am realizing now that this whole keto, LCHF, chasing ketones, etc. is bogus. :tongue:

What I have realized that to me it is all about lowering my insulin level. THAT is what metabolic syndrome is about, and with it diabetes, obesity, PCOS, Alzheimer’s, (maybe Cancer), CVD, etc.

Keto is about lowering insulin load by lower carb intake and reduced time window of intake. As @PaulL says above, lowering the insulin enough to allow lipolysis in earnest.

That is what Keto is all about, and that is what fasting is all about. To me.

YMMV

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #28

There are ketogenic diets and then there’s Keto. I do a ketogenic diet. Net Carbs <40, protein to .7g/lbs of LBM minimum, and fat to satiety. I do not consciously eat high fat, but my average week is generally 55-65% fat, 25-40% protein and 5-8% carbs. Some weeks it’s more Keto, but most weeks it’s ketogenic carbohydrate restriction. I think I lose a bit better with more protein, TBH. But that might be satiety effect of protein.

(Running from stupidity) #29

Exactly.

It’s funny, I was talking to TJ the other day about a blog post I have in the works that includes this par:

All I REALLY care about is my carbs - all but three days since I started they’ve been under 20g net carbs (and never more than 25g). I don’t care if my protein is over, and if my fat is over, it’s all about restricting carbs, because doing THAT controls the insulin, which is the primary fat driver. (Not to mention other huge health benefits.)

And that started me writing another post about how it should be called the “Insulin Control Eating Method.”

Next thing to do is get my ADHD brain under control and FINISH one of these bloody articles. (Well, all of them, but one would be a start…)

(Jack Brien) #30

You know what I’ve learnt from this thread? Stay away from the FB pages. There’s a far more knowledgeable discussion here, rather than being told to read a pinned post.

(Running from stupidity) #31

And Reddit.