Question about Limits

#1

OK this question is more of just in theory and don’t think I’m over here really trying to test my limits and stuff haha, but I was curious…

Obviously there’s no SET limit to the amount of carbs we can intake in a day and stay in ketosis. I try to stay under 30g at absolute maximum (but have had a few days here and there where I get close to 40g), but generally i tend to eat around 10-15g since starting Keto. Some days less. But we all kinda know a general number we try to stay under, and whenever possible stay far under.

What if I was to eat a treat that is low calorie and high carbs, like popcorn for example… Enough to stay under my carb limit for staying in ketosis, but by not much… So say my limit was under 40g carbs, and I eat 35g of carbs worth of popcorn, which would probably work out to i don’t know, 400 calories or something… And lets say anything else I ate during the day was 0 carbs… Just meats or whatever. And overall my calories added up to a deficit (I did exercise and my normal calorie burning for the day). Would I still potentially lose weight, even with the CLOSE to the limit amount of carbs in my diet for the day?

Again, I’m not looking for a pass to eat a bag of popcorn every day! Haha. But I was just curious about how the limits work. Like I said most days I’m in the 10-15g range anyway.

(Omar) #2

Mike Mutzel does not see a problem in taking the carb limit up if you are athletic.

I prefer zero carb. My body is extremely sensitive to carbs.

depending on the age, health condition, and activity level, you can search your own limit by try and error.

I believe there is lots of individuality here.

(Robert C) #3

Stick with this statement. Some extra carbs followed by a 1 hour hike in the mountains is very different than extra carbs and a Netflix binge.

In particular, popcorn while sitting down to watch a movie is big time bad. Fat, in that case, is mixing with an insulin spike, to create the perfect storm of insulin wanting to store fat and fat on the popcorn being available.

Keto is not a “fat” license - as much as you want - anytime. Keto is more of a “no carbs” thing.

#4

Interesting on the insulin. That kind of scientific stuff is still very confusing to me. I’m all about playing the numbers and so far so good haha. Eventually I’ll truly learn that stuff… Although so far so good (down over 40lbs in 3 months)… And I let myself have popcorn like twice a month (not as much popcorn as in the scenario listed above though)

(Robert C) #5

Yes! Stick with this, keep the “cheats” down - get to where you want to go.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #6

If you are trying to game your body’s systems, you might want to consider the underlying biology. First, since insulin is our fat-storage hormone, anyone wanting to lose weight needs to eat in a way that keeps insulin as low as possible for as much of the day as possible. This is the reason for our suggestion to keep your carb intake under 20 g/day.

Your carb tolerance may or may not be higher than that, but we advise not experimenting with more carbohydrate until you are sure you are fat-adapted. Everyone’s carb tolerance is different, but my understanding is that my tolerance level doesn’t change very rapidly. From day to day, it is pretty much the same. Anyone eating above their carb threshold is going to see elevated insulin, which will stop ketosis and fat-burning until all the excess glucose from the carbohydrate is removed from the bloodstream.

If your carb threshold is 40 g/day, and you eat 30 g of popcorn in a single day, you have only 5 other g of carbohydrate that you can eat before triggering an insulin spike. As long as you don’t trigger a rise in insulin, you should be fine. That’s the whole point of the carb limit, after all.

You mention calories in your OP. Calories are not very relevant on a well-formulated ketogenic diet, because we are eating in a way that gives us access to our stored fat, and our body signals how much food to eat by means of the hunger and satiety hormones it secretes. As long as we give our body enough calories, it will happily metabolize its excess fat store. Skimping on calories, however, even in the context of low carbohydrate intake, will cause the body to react by hanging on to all the energy it can get its hands on, so as to get us safely through the famine.

#7

The how-to-keto guidelines are an over simplification - which work fine for the masses - but the underlining human machinery is extremely complex (yet simple at the same time). If you try to push and pull too many levers you may just undo yourself.

I accidently had 19g carbs in one hit, I wasn’t paying much attention that day, just saw 1g carbs on my iPhone and went for it. Bad news, knocked me out of ketosis.

Besides they are suppose to be 20g composed mostly from veggies not popcorn or “keto treats”.

Put it all another way, your blood can only carry one tiny teaspoon of glucose at any given time. That’s about 5 grams worth but if you eat 35 grams worth of popcorn …

(Carl Keller) #8

For me, popcorn was a compulsion food that I could just keep eating and eating until it was gone. Moderation was impossible and it did little to fulfill my hunger.

You may have better control of your impulses and there’s nothing wrong with an occasional treat that doesn’t push us past the carb redline so I won’t tell you not too, but I will say that they are wiser ways to spend your carbs.

Something I heard a few years ago helps me resist the temptation to buy theater popcorn when I go to see a movie now:

You know that “butter” they put on theater popcorn? It’s made from John Goodman’s [spoiler]ball sweat[/spoiler].

(Bob M) #9

No, it’s not, at least by my CGM:

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My CGM’s software puts a dot whenever you take a reading and records the reading. I made homemade popcorn with ghee, palm oil, and butter and salt and ate it at about 7:15 pm (the dot for 4.8), finished eating at about the 4.6. Multiply by 18 to get US units. I then had a drink between the 4.9 and 4.8 and went to bed.

Note the basically ZERO blood sugar rise for popcorn.

Your mileage may of course be different, but I have multiple readings just like this one for popcorn. Now, I still don’t eat popcorn that much, but if I have it once or even twice a month, I don’t freak out about it.

(Bob M) #10

By the way, this illustrates why if you have the ability to use one and can afford one, a CGM is a great tool. There’s no guessing. Want to know how your blood sugar is affected by something? Eat it, then keep measuring. I’ve tried using pin-prick monitors, but you have to test every 15-30 minutes, which gets painful, and their error rate (plus or minus 15%) means they have anomalous spikes and dips.

Now, if someone would only make an insulin (and maybe glucagon) continuous monitor, that would rock.

(Robert C) #11

I am not a doctor (or in the medical field) so, I might be completely off base but, I thought the body tries hard to keep blood sugar levels constant (so a healthy individual would just be mostly flat along with a rise for the dawn phenomenon).

I do not know the relation (or even if there is one) between blood glucose and insulin going up (with potentially accompanying fat storage).

Are you saying that since your blood sugar level did not change, that you think no extra fat storage took place? (I guess I am assuming fat loss is your goal.)

(Robert C) #12

This seems like a good dream but could just turn out to be a nightmare. I have a funny feeling that the measurements would tell you exactly what you already know - carbs in, insulin up, ketosis “bye bye”, fat storage begins.

But, I can see the testing limits regularly after maintenance as good to not fall off track.

(Todd Allen) #13

I do finger prick blood glucose monitoring and use a cheap breathalyzer to monitor ketones checked against rare tests of blood ketones and adjust my food choices as needed to stay at least minimally in ketosis and keep my blood sugar below 100 mg/dl, the fasting level considered the threshhold for prediabetes.

With those as my criteria I find my tolerance for carbs varies dramatically. When feeling good and engaging in moderately demanding long duration physical activity such as bicycling or hiking I can often average about 10 g net carbs per hour without trouble while on other days, especially when sick, stressed or not sleeping well I may need to stay below 20 g for the day.

#14

I think that’s a good point Carl. No matter what the numbers say, whether you do or don’t stay in ketosis, if a particular food item brings on a binge then it isn’t for us. Just upsets the entire apple cart too much.

My wife makes a decent popcorn but I just can’t be bothered with it. Once I’m full with my protein and fat, I have very little interest in it, or pizza, or …

(My “occasional” treat, which I’m starting to have more than ever, is Lindt 90% Dark Chocolate, about 1.4g per half serving. I better watch myself).

#15

Interesting and I’m not surprised, I imagine there’s a decent amount of fibre in there somewhere.

Otherwise, yeah, I’ve got my eye on a CGM. Is yours (@ctviggen) a Libre?

So far (in Australia), I have only found the Abbott Libre, but the pharmacist people know next to nothing about them.

I know the probes are $92, the web site says they last up to 6 months, so does that translate to 1 month in the real world?

Do you jab yourself with them or do they somehow stick on (somehow?)

And they speak of a free iPhone App, so does that make the Libre device optional or do you still need it?

Thanks

#16

I never got it with the extra oil drizzled on. It tastes good to me without it. AMC and Regal pop their corn in coconut oil (and not the hydrogenated kind). Though I think some AMC use canola. I try to go to Regal if I can.

@Jdave If I go to the movie theater (which is rare), I, personally, would still probably spring for a small (or, even better, kid sized) unbuttered. I’d just make sure it’s an otherwise no carb day. And if my blood sugars go higher, I would probably just fast until they’re in check and start back in with a fatty meal. (I’m not diabetic but have some amount of insulin resistance, which is lessening, and hyperinsulinemia to certain foods/allergens like whey and probably corn lol.)

A few weeks ago I ate a third of a loaf of banana nut bread (my boyfriend’s mom made it for me for my birthday). I was surprised it didn’t give me much of a problem. Fasting blood sugar was between 100 and 110 for a couple of days (usually 80-85). I was never out of ketosis. Never went below 1.2 blood reading (usually 2+/-). I actually wooshed 3lbs after that, which I thought would be temporary but it wasn’t.

I went right back to my regular below 20 g a day after that. I would think everyone would have a different experience though. You’re just going to have to do n=1 testing to see where your limits are and what works for you.