Protein v hunger help

#7

What kind of numbers are we talking about? How active are you? Do you exercise? Are you seeing/feeling any negative effects one way or the other…OTHER than ketone numbers?

(mole person) #8

I drop out of decent ketosis if I overeat protein too. In fact it’s about the same amount as you. Anything over 75 grams of protein.

I like to get my fat from the fattiest cuts of meat. I find it improves satiety and doesn’t leave me nauseated as too much rendered fats can.

(Prancing Pony) #9

On average between 50 and 80g of protein, as I said 15 to 17g of carbs and 100 to 150 of fat. 2 meals a day. I don’t exercise at the moment, because when I do my weight goes up by 2kg for a few days after and I wanted to test out my protein theory with out the weight blips. But I spend 8 hours a day on my feet working and hike about 4 miles on the weekend. I’m 5.6 and fairly muscular for a girl, I prefer weights to cardiovascular and currently weigh 108kg or 238lb. Started at 126kg or 277lb so yay me! :slight_smile:

I cook all my food, don’t snack and mainly eat meat, fat and green leafy veg. As an example, last night I had a homemade beef meatball with a large salad and mayonnaise.

The negative is I have been floating about this weight for more than a year and on the worst days it goes up a little and I have to work to get it back down.

(Prancing Pony) #10

Thank you, maybe it is a female body thing :wink: I do feel better when I eat pork belly but wanted more options than that :joy:

(mole person) #11

Here is what I mostly eat. Beef ribs, short ribs, rib eye, chuck roasts, lamb shoulder or stewing lamb, fatty ground beef, very fatty sausages and of course pork belly and bacon. However, for me the trick is all in how I cook all these things.

I had a cooking revelation when I bought and began using a sous vide. When you cook something at a very, very low temperature for a long time it becomes incredibly tender while maintaining both rareness (which I love) and all of its fat. In fact I can no longer get correct macros from using reports of cooked foods since standard cooking renders a lot of fat. I now use reports from raw meats to figure my macros.

Anyhow, what I’ve discovered is that I don’t even have to use my sous vide to get this result. I can pop any cut of meat in the oven and cook low and slow for the exact same effect. Honestly, I think that I prefer the result this way. A lot of flavor comes out in the sous vide juices and this doesn’t happen in the oven.

Also, the oven, for some reason that I don’t understand, results in better rareness at higher temperature cooking than the sous vide. So while I’d cook beef ribs for 36 hrs at 130 degrees in the sous vide I find that I actually prefer 6 hours at 150 degrees in the oven.

Eating meat fat when it hasn’t been rendered out of it’s natural protein structure massively improves my digestion and satiety.

For ages I avoided ground beef entirely because no matter how fatty the original grind was it all got delivered to my system as rendered fats that would make me feel terrible if I consumed enough, and this led to overconsumption of protein which also makes me feel crappy (not to mention that excess protein leads me to overeat in the next 12 hours and affects both my level of ketosis and physiology associated with that level such as mood, energy, and brain fog). Now I just cook a ground beef patty in the oven for a couple of hours at a low temperature and then give it a few seconds in a pan on each side to deliver the flavours of the sear. Almost all the fat stays in the burger and honestly, it’s just waaaay better.

The same applies to how I cook fatty sausages and bacon now. All the fat stays in.

Anyhow, I don’t want to write a book here about how I cook but if this interests you feel free to hit me up for more details. The same applies for anyone else.

Ilana's beef binge buster thread
(mole person) #12

Here are my macros from yesterday. All I ate was a beef rib cooked as described above at 9:30 am and 5 pm along with some gelled bone broth (I actually enjoy salty gelled bone broth as a condiment). I also had a creamy coffee at 6 am.

20190829_065616
20190829_065616.jpg1080×1509 219 KB

(Prancing Pony) #13

Thank you do much for the advice, I use a slow cooker for beef ribs and it is my favourite so I’ll try and use it more.

(mole person) #14

I don’t think a slow cooker will work. It cooks at far too high a temperature and the fats absolutely render out.

I just checked. Slow cookers cook at 200 degrees on low and 300 at high. My cooking is all at about 150 degrees or lower.

(Mame) #15

I am finding this discussion so interesting especially as it affects your satiety.
I am trying to remember if you are in Britain or in the States or…and what kind of oven you may be using… 150 degrees Fahrenheit?

(mole person) #16

Sorry, I should have specified!

I’m in Canada. I have no idea why we still use Fahrenheit. So about 65 Celsius. The oven is an apartment sized gas oven. As you may have seen from the pictures in my accountability thread I tend to load the oven with many days worth of meat to make the fuel burning more efficient.

#17

Minus testing things out, don’t be afraid of that. Many people have that response, it’s not fat gain. One of the reasons scales aren’t always the best measurement of progress. is they only see total weight and not where it came from.

Then you’re already ahead of the game because all the best stuff to recomp your body is weight training.

Been there! Normal generic rules keto took 100lbs off me, then it stopped. Adding in fasting and a bunch of other stuff that had a temporary effect then ultimately made stuff worse. I’ve totally reworked everything at this point. Sometimes the trial and error takes a while. Don’t let it get you down.

(Libby) #18

I was toting some 92 pound bags of portland cement off the truck and into the barn yesterday, and had a sudden deep and overwhelming appreciation for how much weight that is! I could feel myself getting shorter. It was such a strain gravity-wise. Kudos to you for having survived that every day all day. I am totally awed by how much of a difference that must make.

(Prancing Pony) #19

Thank you so much for your reply. And congratulations for the 100lb! That is awesome :smile:

#20

Yes, it’s something else. Not enough protein. Some people do well on lower protein, but that doesn’t mean everyone does. There are plenty of us here who have discovered that if we’re not eating enough of it, no amount of fat in the world is going to satiate us.

Also, like @amwassil I don’t have a reliable satiety signal, so I track calories. I don’t eat to a strict limit each day. Some days I’m way over, some way under. But I know that if I’m not eating at a deficit overall, then I’m not going to lose. Even on the days I’m over, having a number gives me a point to put the brakes on and really think through whether I’m hungry or whether I just feel like eating.

You could try going back to the higher, satiating level of protein you were eating and then experiment with dropping it by little bits day-by-day until you find a better balance for you.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #21

What kind of fat are you eating? If you are talking about vegetable oil, that stuff is high in polyunsaturated fatty acids, which are nauseating in quantity. Stick to the healthier saturated and monounsaturated fats, such as are found in butter/ghee, tallow, lard, bacon (or goose or duck) grease, etc. If you cook with them and use the fruit oils (avocado, coconut, and olive—which are much lower in PUFA’s than the seed oils), for your salad dressing, you will feel a lot better. Be sure to make your gravies and sauces with butter and heavy cream, as well.

While fat is quite satisfying to most people, some people need a little more protein and a little less fat to assuage their hunger. You may have to experiment a bit to find what proportion works best for you. You could probably increase your protein a small amount without risking getting kicked out of ketosis. There are various ways to calculate how much protein to eat. What we recommend on these forums is 1.0-1.5 grams protein per kilogram of lean body mass per day, but that involves knowing or guessing your body composition. Or instead of using lean mass, you could use your ideal weight as a rough guide. Alternatively, you could go on the Virta Health Web site and search on “how much protein?” which will take you to a table showing recommended protein intake according to your height.

Remember that meats are generally 7 grams of protein per ounce (or 25 g/100 g). If you have excess fat to lose, be sure to eat enough calories, because otherwise the body will hang on to its reserves, so it can get you safely through the famine.

(Prancing Pony) #22

Thank you! Definitely no vegetable oil for me, I read an experiment where they effected blood flow to the heart worse than smoking a cigarette! :scream:
I think you are right and more experimentation is needed. Thanks for the reply.

(mole person) #23

I am starting to conclude that fat is at its most satiating only when paired with significant proteins.

I am like you. I need a high fat/moderate protein diet or the ketogenic diet falls apart for me. My hunger control is poor, I don’t feel as healthy, happy or energetic, and I have poor weight control. I even am more fatigued and suffer brain fog. I just don’t feel much different on high protein then I do on a more moderate carbohydrate diet (such as 80-100 grams a day).

But I experimented with several ways of getting my fats and they are simply not equivalent. Just like not all carbohydrates are equally insulinogenic, not all fats are equally satiating.

A big salad covered in loads of olive oil and cheese will not satiate me like a fat cut of meat. Same with a bulletproof coffee. And certainly fat bombs do not satiate me much at all, I usually just want more.

The reason for this is that there are several powerful ways that the body triggers sensations of satiation. One is via stretch receptors which makes us feel full. Meat is excellent for this because it has such slow digestion. But fat is king when it comes to the hormonal regulation of hunger. Leptin, our primary satiety signaling hormone, is triggered by our fat cells when they sense an abundance of fats.

So, for maximum satiation you need the eat things that are fatty and also that leave you feeling full longer. Basically, nothing except meat gives you all of that.

Ted Naiman offers similar advice. He recommends to his patients that need to lose weight that they avoid all of the added fats (all oils, butter, lard, tallow) and get their fat only from the fats on their meats.

I don’t know that I’d go that far in my own recommendation (although this is actually what I do). But I do believe that optimal weight control comes from meals that are very low carbohydrate, high fat combinations with significant meat protein to activate those stretch receptors and satiety hormones maximally for the longest duration.

Is this a thing?
(Prancing Pony) #24

That’s so true! That is exactly why I was feeling dissatisfied, my stomach felt empty. Hmm stuff to think about. Thank you

#25

I’ve been finding Chaffles to be very filling.

(Prancing Pony) #26

I had to Google that :joy: mmmm! I did recently try keto garlic bread and my goodness why would you eat normal garlic bread!