Protein and fat overdo

(Full Metal KETO AF) #21

Again with the controversy! This might be the most prevalent current argument among the keto “experts”.

@Ilana_Rose My goal weight is 150 now, but I often don’t quite make that amount of protein, 120 is more of an average over time. I use 150g. as a ceiling and eat to satiety for protein and fat. But I think 150 would definitely be more appropriate when I enter maintenance. I am moving towards carnivore in my thinking all the time and if that happens I am pretty sure I will hit that mark more often. :cowboy_hat_face:

(Full Metal KETO AF) #22

I know nothing about menopause except how it can affect mood and temper! But I did look as you suggested.

What to add to your diet

  1. Protein
  2. Omega-3 fatty acids
  3. Fiber
  4. Calcium

From the article (which also recommended fruits and healthy grains so not a keto article!). I am certain you have done loads more reading on this subject than I have. :cowboy_hat_face:

(traci simpson) #23

I like your diligence!

(Full Metal KETO AF) #24

Ted Naiman’s overeating experiment.

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(mole person) #25

This is his experience. It’s no more valuable than my experience which is that overeating protein is easy and leads me to gain weight and be hungrier over the long haul. This is also the experience of many other people on this forum.

If we are just going to go on what Ted Naiman says than we should also be eating 100 grams of carbs a day all in one sitting and severely limiting fats. He says eat no oils or butter or rendered fats of any sort if you are trying to lose weight. He’s not even close to suggesting a ketogenic diet.

(mole person) #26

Actually this is a very controversial subject among carnivores. I’m a carnivore, but follow closer to the Keto-animal-foods protocol which is 2:1 fat to protein in grams. This is also the protocol of Paleo-Medicina which is a clinic using a ketogenic carnivore diet therapeutically with excellent results. Paul Saladino is a carnivore doctor who prefers .7-.8 grams/lean lb. Amber O’Hearn is moderate protein as is Michaela Peterson. Shawn Baker is the only well known carnivore that I know who’s really high on protein but he’s an elite athlete so I’m not going to follow the same protein protocol that works for him.

#27

Shawn Baker also has high fasting glucose and A1C. Which has been explained as he needs high glucose, but i think I’ll pass on that and stick with higher ketones instead.

Insulin and glucagon counteract each other on blood glucose, but they don’t cancel each other out. Glucose is created and sequestered either as glycogen or fat.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #28

And he’s the first one to say it probably is not a good idea for most people, carnivore or not.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #29

My MD eats about 12 pounds of red meat per week he told me. I didn’t intend to start an argument, only give my opinion. I think there’s a fairly wide acceptable range of protein possible. I just wanted to point out my general protein in grams is often more than fat, I am in ketosis and loosing weight. I believe the protein scare is unfounded personally. It isn’t something I worry about. You all should do whatever you want and find what works for you. Kind of burnt out on this thread, over and out. :cowboy_hat_face:

(mole person) #30

Yes. Absolutely. He not anyone that normal people should be looking to emulate on protein. He is both outside the norm himself and really just eating what he wants. His protein choices aren’t based on anything but “I want this, and it feels good to me, and I’m doing fine”. He’s an n=1, not an authority on this topic.

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #31

It’s funny; I’ve read that over and over, and thought “well, of course! That’s the sensible way to go”. But when I started tracking my foods recently, I became concerned over quite a few days of only 800 calorie intake. I had to figure out that trusting my hunger signals applies even when I’m not as hungry, as when I am.

(K-9 Handler/Trainer, PSD/EP Specialist, Veteran) #32

There are many new research, reports and studies that claim the “Anabolic window” is nothing but a broscience myth. It’s rather eye-opening, and makes sense in light of the new pathways and processes that are being realized about the human body.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #33

One study I looked into the other day claims that intake and expenditure pretty much match, but not on a daily basis. It’s more like over a week’s time, apparently. When you think about it, it is certainly plausible.

(mole person) #34

Yes, this. I’ve heard protein scientists say that rather than a 30 minute window you have more like a full 24 hour day.

(PSackmann) #35

That sounds much more reasonable, as I doubt muscle recovery even begins in the first 30 minutes.

(K-9 Handler/Trainer, PSD/EP Specialist, Veteran) #36

And even the general 24hr day is a lot more complicated, and depends on every complicated process going on in your body at any given moment, countless internal and external factors involved. We love to simplify things, but our bodies are way more complicated than we can imagine.
Hence, 10 different people of similar height and weight can do the exact same strength training, ketogenic or fasting regimen, and show 10 different outcomes.

(mole person) #37

Yes.

Everyone needs a certain amount of protein. I’ve yet to read a single person here arguing for even sticking closely to the WHO minimum protein recommendation. But the body only needs so much. When you exceed that amount the rest is used for energy. To me the whole discussion about gluconeogenesis is completely inconsequential except to people with diabetes.

What matters is that the excess protein that you are eating is being used for energy first; before the fat on your plate, before the carbs on your plate, and certainly before the fat on your body.

Further, protein is insulinogenic. It’s not as bad as carbs but it’s much, much more so than fat. So when you eat protein insulin is triggered and leads to glucose being pushed into the cells and lipogenesis.

I never argue with the people here who say that they do fine at higher protein levels. I completely believe them. But people like me who don’t do well and who fall out of ketosis when consuming a lot of proteins are extremely common. There are multiple threads on this forum where dozens of people say this exact thing about themselves.

And it’s hardly surprising. Moderate protein is a foundational element of the ketogenic diet for a reason. Even Amy Berger admits higher protein leads to temporary sesation of ketogenesis. But until more recently she described herself as low carb and not keto. She’d regularly say she didn’t care that much about whether she was in ketosis. Recently however, she’s changed her tune and says that she does best in deep ketosis.

Stephen Phinney, the grandfather of nutritional ketosis, says that higher protein amounts absolutely impact ketogenesis. So do the two keto dudes. Most of us are here to do a ketogenic diet and so when people point to the higher protein suggestions of people like Ted Naiman who’s also recommending low fat +100 grams of carbs a day (preferably gobbled up in one sitting) it frankly befuddles me. His diet might work fine, but it’s not a ketogenic diet and you can’t mix and match diet elements to your liking and hope to have success.

Some people may be in ketosis at higher protein amounts but some people are also in ketosis at 100 grams of carbs. We recommend 20 so that nearly everyone gets there. That’s the reason it’s important to specify a moderate protein ketogenic diet. We want people to succeed. If later they experiment and find they tolerate a few extra grams of protein and/or carbs then that’s great but at least initially moderate protein and low carbohydrate encourages the highest success rate which is why it’s recommended by the experts on the ketogenic diet.

(traci simpson) #38

Thank you for that post!

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #39

On the other hand, Bikman argues that context is important. He has shown that extra protein can drive up insulin secretion in a high-carbohydrate context, but that the insulin-glucagon ratio remains unaltered in a low-carbohydrate context, meaning that although insulin rises somewhat, glucagon rises also, to counteract insulin and keep the body catabolic.

(Andzej Nameiko) #40

But there are also many research that claims “anabolic window” is not a myth. Also research that protein does not affect ketosis. People who strength training need more protein and it doesn’t affect ketosis. Who we should believe? I eat enough protein, sometimes more than i need (as i mentioned - not much, maybe 20 g), but my body is burning fat very well. Also in two months on keto and strength training I gained lean muscle. My body looks the way better.