Podcast #105 and #104

(Shawn Cochran) #1

I have to say that I’ve loved and have listened to all the podcasts and listening to the last two podcasts really kind of opened my eyes to things in the keto-verse that after the past 1.5-2 years of being keto, has kind of irritated me. I’m not pointing the finger at anyone and I’m just as much to blame on my own perspective and perhaps not listening and reading as thoroughly as I ought to. I also realize we are all still learning and are doing our own experiments and everyone has different results. With that being said, these last two shows in my mind really touched on how the CICO model is wrong and misguided. I know they have talked about this before, but I can’t help thinking that up until recently the CICO model has been included in this particular keto group.

Now, before you flame me, hear me out. When new people join and ask about macros, they are told to check out the calculator which spits out macros but said calculator says that to lose weight, you have to be in a caloric deficit. I understand people have said, keep carbs under 20, moderate protein (1-1.5 g/kg lbm) and eat fat to satiety, yet the calculator says to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. In the past 2 months, I have finally got it through my head (my own admission to still buying into the CICO model) that CICO doesn’t matter. In the past two months I have been lifting heavy things (well, gradually increasing lifting heavy things), have been doing 2-3 36 hours fasts per week, and eating until I am satiated instead of about 2 years of trying to hit specific macros and a 20-25% deficit. I am mixing it up now from ADF to IF (a 18:6 pattern or perhaps a 22:2 similar to what @carl mentioned in his latest podcast) and am not hitting the scale except once a month and using the tape measure as part of it.

Bottom line is, if we are saying that keto is not a CICO way of eating and the CICO model is simplistic and flawed (of which I agree it certainly is) then why does the calculator and many other calculators still push that model, including the one that gets linked to in this forum? I feel like I’ve wasted a lot of time coming to this conclusion and paradigm shift, in large part due to my own thoughts and perspectives. I would hope that we could start people on the right path and not point them to something that continues to prop up an incorrect model.

#2

I don’t know anyone who uses a calculator to work out caloric intake or of a standard recommended calculator recommended in this forum. I suppose you could work out the likely range you would fall into should you eat 20g or less carbs, your protein range and then fat you ate that day. See already that is getting complicated and very variable!

(Rob) #3

It is a good point… but they are not our calculators and likely predate the latest thinking on CICO. Almost everyone coming to keto is wedded to CICO and probably NEED to see the idea of a caloric deficit to even believe that Keto can work? Anyway, it’s almost a Keto right of passage to think calories matter and then adjust to the idea that they don’t. :grin:

I wouldn’t worry too much about it (though it is annoying) since the baseline message of ‘eat fat to satiety’ should override calorie issues… once people are helped over the CICO debunking - but it surely confuses the issue for people who don’t come to supportive forums like this one.

(carl) #4

I think it takes a long time for people (including myself) to un-learn everything we’ve been taught. I have never used a calculator. I always wanted to feel my way around. I’m actually the same way when I cook. I observe how much of an ingredient I naturally want to use, and then write it down. I adjust if I have to.

TLDR; You’re absolutely right.

(Dameon Welch-Abernathy) #5

We’re all learning together as we go.
And yes, we’re going to make mistakes, both individually and collectively.
I wouldn’t be shocked if we discover some more science along the way that disproves something many of us currently believe is true.

(Kellyn ) #6

I have to admit that I was using a calculator for my macros. :flushed: I was trying to hit my macros on Cronometer. After hearing the new podcast I am putting it away. I think the calculator in the past had discouraged me somewhat. I now plan to eat when I am hungry and stop when I am full. In order to get started on this WOE I needed some guidance with the calculator, but now I am extremely grateful for the realization I came to, upon listening to the recent podcast. It was like a light bulb went off! I have listened to all previous podcasts and have been following this forum for quite some time, but it has taken a long time to finally understand that CICO doesn’t matter. I am so grateful to 2 Keto Dudes for all the great information they have given and to everyone in the forums for their input and support.

(Ethan) #7

We humans like to put things into paradigms so that we can scale them or repeat them. In this case, there are way too many variables for such a paradigm to really track. Instead, we can use a tool and tailor it individually–like functional medicine.

(carl) #8

Yes. We also like to feel like we have to “science the sh*t out of everything” or else it won’t be effective. We’ve learned to trust the authorities brain over our own body. Pills work. Bodies are broken. That’s the message we’re stuck with after all this…

#9

@carl, would it be possible to make some sticky posts on the forum about a few basic topics including this one? I hate that people get discouraged about “keto isn’t working” and yet when you read their entire thread you see all their calorie and deficit posts and watch them dismiss the advice over and over again (and some of these newbies are so stubborn about it they get downright rude!) to eat fat to satiety.

It’s just a thought and might clarify things for some folks and ease the confusion a little that I see more and more of each day. Feel free to ignore this if you don’t think it would work or might step on some toes.

(Shawn Cochran) #10

Having a biochem background I am always looking for measurables and quantities to show results. I so want an algorithm that I can plug a bunch of measureables into (ie bg, bf %, lbm, insulin levels) and just have it spit out an answer. Maybe some AI stuff will come along with some embedded monitoring system that will give me all that wonderful detail and I can make adjustments in real time. Of course that’s my scifi side talking but it would be cool.

(carl) #11

I think that’s a great idea.

(Magdalena Herrington) #12

I’m new to the forum and still a keto novice. Someone posted on IG the other day saying that all diets work by creating a caloric restriction. Is that true? It seems like I eat a lot more on keto but tgen I don’t track or anything like that.

(Dameon Welch-Abernathy) #13

It’s not a simple calories in, calories out model.
Your body reacts differently to, say, a slice of chocolate cake versus bacon, even if they have similar caloric content.
Likewise, if you’re eating the same amount of calories over six “meals” a day versus, say once or twice a day, that will have a different impact on the body.
When those meals occur also has an impact.

Do I eat less as a result of this way of eating? In the long run, compared to what I was eating before, sure.
Is that why I’m losing weight? No, but it’s a nice side effect.

(Magdalena Herrington) #14

Thank you. I was trying to upload tge graphic from the post but couldn’t figure it out. Someone with a PhD, MA who is a professor commented on the IG post that both low carb & keto “work because they put you into a caloric deficit. In fact, if you’re not insulin resistant or morbidly obese, neither diet is more effective than simple caloric restriction.”
Yet another person commented, “People, if you lose weight it’s because you’re in a caloric deficit. That’s how weight loss works.”
I just want to be sure I’m understanding how keto works and am explaining it correctly.