Perhaps a stupid Fasting question


(Meara McLaughlin) #1

I am 5 weeks on Keto, Is there a downside to fasting 16:8 this early in the program? I find that I am rarely hungry, and expect fasting to be easy for me.

Here is my question. In a lifetime of dieting, I have always heard that our bodies go into “Starvation Mode” when you fast or fail to eat enough. I have easily maintained an 800 cal per day regime (though not Keto) before and it has never worked. Clearly that is not the message on this board, but I would be interested to hear the WHY of this kind of fasting being good for you while others are not. Thanks for indulging a newbie.


(Daniel Crispin) #2

When you are in Keto, your body is burning fat. So if you don’t eat, it simply burns the stored fat in your body.

I am not sure about the exact process when you are not in Keto, but I have read that the body will start by burning muscle tissues instead of fat because it is the best way to reduce your metabolism, this is why it’s called starvation mode. The body think you might die because no food is coming in, so it wants to make your needed energy consomption as low as possible. Is this true, I don’t know. But from everything I have read about Keto, it is not an issue at all when it comes to the Keto diet.

I have just watched a video on Youtube of a guy who did a month long fast and lost 50 pounds. He addressed the muscle issue and said he did not notice any muscle loss. His was a water fasting diet.

So if you are trying to loose weight, and don’t mind the fasting, you should go for it. If you do not have much weight to loose, you should be more careful. So it really depends on your situation. Starvation occurs when you are not eating and your body has no fat to burn from your tissue. Then it has no choice but to burn muscle and organ tissue, which is really, really bad.

If you do a search on fasting, you should be able to find the warning signs that say you should stop. I remember that some of them included extreme fatigue and head spliting headaches. There are others but I do not know them. I believe there is also something called true hunger, can’t remember the details.

So as long as you feel perfectly fine, you should be ok. Your body will let you know if you are doing something dangerous.


(Allan L) #3

This is explained in detail in the Obesity Code Podcast, Episode 3.

http://obesitycodepodcast.com/listen/


(Allie) #4

If it works for you then do it, but if you start to feel bad, eat and try again at a later date. It’s not an essential part of living keto but can compliment nicely when people are ready and want to use it.


(Dawn) #5

Such a great question. I am going to give you a little bit about my process. I started IF about 2 weeks into my keto journey. I simply wasn’t hungry and that made matters so much easier. I was really worried that doing IF that soon would ruin the diet and cause stalls. But it never happened. For my 30 day keto anniversary, I actually did a 3 day water fast. That was also great. So in my opinion, fasting can be done at any time as long as you are fat adapted and able to sustain with no hunger. I also believe that burning lean muscle is not a valid concern for people who are obese or have much weight to lose. Please listen to 2 keto dudes Fasting podcast and the Dr. Fung episode. Great info that will tell you exactly what to do and how to do it.


#6

Yes, I think fat-adaptation is the key factor here. If we’re not adapted to using ketones and fatty acids as fuel, the body sees a drop in glucose intake as an emergency. I know that there are some studies that show that we can lose lean muscle when we fast, and I think this is the reason: if we fast and are not fat-adapted, the body panics and gets glucose by burning whatever it can easily access. Once your fat-burning is up and running and you can access fat stores even during exertion, the body just taps into stored fat and doesn’t ruin perfectly good lean muscle tissue. (Or at least that’s my understanding of it!)


(Meara McLaughlin) #7

OK, these are all great terms, but as a newbie, I need a bit more definition. How is “Fat-adapted” different from being in Ketosis? Are they the same? How do I know I am fat adapted if I am not losing weight?


(Allie) #8

If your body is producing ketones then you’re in ketosis.
When your body is used to using them for fuel, you’re keto-adapted - this is when it’s best to start fasting if you choose to.


(Dawn) #9

So sorry, I should have known better than to start throwing terms at you. I had the same issue when I was first starting. I still don’t know what N=1 means. LOL!
Here is my very simple and primitive understanding of ketosis and fat adaption. Fat adaption is really one of the main goals of keto.

There is a big difference between fat adapted and ketosis. Forum, please keep me honest here and let me know if i mis-state any information.

Ketosis just means you have used up all of your glycogen stores and your body is producing some keytones. Those keytones can be used to help power your body. Now what those keytones are actually doing and how they are performing is a bit of a mystery without some form of measurement. The simplest measurement of course is just to get some keto sticks to find out if there are keytones being excreted in your urine. Not a great measurement but it’s a good start. Keto sticks don’t tell you how or IF those keytones are being used to power your body. But they do tell you if keytones are present which is a GREAT start to let you know you are doing things right.

You want to be in ketosis because that moves you one step closer to being fat adapated.

Fat adapted is when you have successfully hacked your body and have switched your primary source of fuel from being carbs to FAT. This occurs when you create new enzymes (and more biological processes I am sure) that allow you to consume fat for energy. WHen this happens, life starts to get good. Because once you are fat adapted, your body no longer uses sugar as it’s primary source of fuel but starts to grab at those fat stores that have been sitting there unused for years. When you are fat adapted, you can tolerate a few additional carbs (well some of us can) without worrying about being kicked out of ketosis. Those enzymes are really strong at this point and as long as you have fat stores, they will continue to be used for energy. It is a biological miracle in my opinion. It is also one of the reasons that I suggest you stay keto as a way of life as opposed to just toying with it for a few pounds loss. You are literally redesigning your body to burn much more efficiently.

The timing of going from general ketosis to full on fat adaptation varies from person to person. It took me about 3-4 full weeks to get fully fat adapted. Those enzymes take some time to build up.

It can take about 2 days to get into ketosis. You want to stay in ketosis with no slip ups because you don’t want glycogen stores to start piling up from accidental carbs you eat. If you fall out of ketosis before you are fat adapted, you will have to start the entire process over again because it means that glycogen has piled up again and is being used for energy. Eat well and stay very focused on your keto plan for the first month. It is the best and fasted way to become fat adapted. After the first month, stay focused and make adjustments based on your individual needs. Start listening to the 2Keto dudes podcast. Richard does a fantastic job explaining all of this in the first few episodes.

Hey Keto fam, please make corrections where I went wrong.


(Allie) #10

An experiment on yourself :slight_smile:


#11

One of the leading experts in fasting is Dr. Jason Fung, a nephrologist in Canada. He has written a couple of books, the latest is The Complete Guide to Fasting. It’s a concise compilation of the extensive information on his blog, you can start here: https://idmprogram.com/fasting-a-history-part-i/
Lastly, he has a series of lectures and interviews he’s conducted that can be found on YouTube and Stitcher. For example: https://youtu.be/tIuj-oMN-Fk


(KCKO, KCFO) #12

This blog explains the difference between ketosis and fat adapted and why you should try to reach fat adapted.


(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #13

The value of n is the number of subjects (human or animal) in a scientific study. The higher the n in a peer reviewed study the better. More subjects means greater universality of the result. But, as @Shortstuff said, we are experimenting on ourselves. We aren’t looking for the answer that works for most people most of the time. The only n that matters in this study is this 1 n. n=1.


(Bunny) #14

My take on this:

When your adapting or fat adapting ketogenically your fast-mimicking (your not really fasting; simply not eating within a socially sanctioned or prescribed period of time is not “fasting”), the body starts getting use to idea of tolerating lower blood sugar levels and have normal (keto ‘ancestral’ normal) blood sugars even when you are fasting intermittently IF or extensively EF! It’s about slowly adapting to more austere ascetic conditions prescribed by what is natural! Nature dictates when we should eat NOT PEOPLE?

Micronutrients are very very important prior to ‘fasting’ extensively EF!

Megan Ramos:

But my blood sugar levels are typically between 3 and 3.9 mmol/L, which translates into 50 to … or sorry 54 to 70 mg/dL. So, that 65 to 99 mg/dL is considered to be normal by government standards here in Canada, the 54 to 70 is considered to be common amongst ketogenic population. A lot of my patients too, who follow ketogenic diet, they’re getting sugars between 3 and 3.9 or between 54 and 70.

​What does it mean? What is normal? What is acceptable for someone who’s keto adapted? We’re still learning. I usually gauge how my body’s feeling at a certain blood sugar level. I let that determine whether or not it’s normal for me. Hypoglycemia is not defined as a set of numbers. It’s defined as a set of symptoms, so dizziness, mental fatigue, shaking, palms sweaty, hands. That defines hypoglycemia. It’s a list of symptoms.

​For me, I was doing 24-hour fast at the time and I started to feel woozy, so I scaled back to 18 hours and I was really strict with my eating windows and then I started to feel fantastic. Then one day, I said, “I’m feeling so good. My sugar stayed nice stable. My ketones have stayed nice and stable. I’m going to see how long I can go for,” and then I surpassed the 24 hour mark.

​It’s a matter of letting your body adapt and letting your body begin to fuel on the fat more efficiently. You have to keep in mind for many of us, we haven’t fueled on fat since our conception. Since we were developing in out Moms’ wombs, we haven’t really fueled on fat. A lot of us have fueled on carbohydrates. For the last 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 plus years of our lives, we fueled on carbohydrates. So, fueling on fat, it takes awhile for that to kick in. You’ll get these lower blood sugar levels because you are following a low carb diet but you might not feel so great right away because your body is learning to fuel on that fat.

Be patient, scale back on the fasting. Having these numbers where you’re not feeling great, is no excuse to go and eat an ice cream sundae or bag of potato chips or an order of french fries. It just means scale back on the fasting and eat a little bit more frequently in the short term. Just help your body adapt to fat fueling. The more you stick to the keto diet or the low carb diet, the easier it’s going to be for your body to fat fuel. - Megan Ramos


Dr Boz Calculates levels of autophagy using blood sugar/blood ketones ratio
(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #15

So my blood glucose story for what it’s worth, which is exactly n=1…

I have always had trouble with hypoglycemia. Then, I lived in Guyana for three months. My friend who I was there with has a hormonal imbalance that prevents her from feeling hunger. She eats far less than the rest of us, and is overweight because she eats too few calories (according to her nutritionist.) {We all cheer for her when she eats seconds.} She was a morning person and I am not, so she would helpfully pack my lunch for the day. It was not enough food. I would get dizzy from hypoglycemia. She said, not enough salt. So I had salted eggs for breakfast until I couldn’t handle it another day and made cinnamon sugar toast. Dizziness much much better. So I thought she was wrong.

Now I live in the subtropics, so heat is also a confounder as it is in tropical Guyana. But I am fat adapted and can go several hours, or days, on my feet in the heat without eating much, or anything, as long as I have my salt. Dangit she was right. I needed salt, not a pack of Oreos in my lunch.


(Bunny) #16

Smart Friend!


(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #17

Yup.