Paleolithic Ketogenic Diet

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #442

Firstly, if you are eating palaeo, not carnivore (despite the fact that this is a carnivore thread), why is dating a problem? If you go out for a meal, just order a steak and salad, and skip dessert.

Secondly, exercise is useless for fat loss, but it has many other benefits. There are plenty of threads in our Exercise forum that should be useful to you.

Could the heart palpitations be the result of not getting enough magnesium? If so, then for palaeo, just be sure to get enough leafy greens, and for strict carnivore, make your own bone broth, simmering it long enough for the marrow to leach into the broth.

(Edith) #443

Soā€¦ heart palpitations have been a very common discussion on this forum. You may want to do a search on them.

I frequently get heart palpitations. For me there are three causes:

  1. Not enough salt
  2. Not enough magnesium
  3. Too much histamine

From what I understand about the Paleo Medicina plan, it is more challenging to follow. There are certain organ meats that need to be added to the diet, the fat percentage is higher, and they have a quantity limit. If you are finding carnivore challenging now, you will definitely find following Paleo Medicinaā€™s version even more challenging.

Now with that being said, how much do you want to feel better? Iā€™ve heard they have great success. It is also possible that you wouldnā€™t have to follow their protocol forever. Once you are healed, you could probably relax the restrictions. How long that takes? Well, that depends upon you and your body. Everyone is different.

You might also want to look into the GAPS protocol. I donā€™t know much about it, but Iā€™ve heard it is also very good for gut healing. I think that diet is based upon using broths.

Iā€™m curious, who discourages exercise?

(Jason) #444

Hi Paul ā€“ Thanks for your reply. I think there might be a little misunderstanding. The Paleolithic Ketogenic Diet (PKD) is a specific therapeutic protocol developed by Paleo Medicina in Hungary. Thatā€™s what most of this thread is discussing.

It prescribes a specific amount of meat (~400 g), organs, unlimited fat, and a protein:fat ratio of about 2:1. It is definitely a carnivorous diet. In later stages, I believe, they allow the addition of certain fruits and vegetables that are fairly gut and keto friendly.

The clinic also suggests limiting exercise until your intestinal permeability has healed. In their experience, it delays healing. Iā€™m not sure if I agree with that entirely, but they have worked with over 4000 patients. (I am not overweight and not concerned with weight loss.)

And thanks for the suggestion about magnesium. Iā€™ve tried supplementing with magnesium, sodium, and potassium in various amount and ratios. Nothing has really helped the palpitations so far. Maybe my body just needs more time to adjust?

(Jason) #445

Thanks Edith! I will search the forums for discussions on heart palpitations. So far, Iā€™ve tried supplementing with magnesium, sodium, and potassium in various amounts and ratios. Nothing has really helped the palpitations so far.

Thanks also for your thoughts on PKD. Iā€™ve been following a SIBO protocol of antibiotics, probiotics, and loads of supplements for the last year. Iā€™m definitely not healed and Iā€™m looking at another round of antibiotics.

PKD claims 6 months recovery without any medications or supplements. And Iā€™m already noticing that I feel really good when I eat close to their recommendations (except for the palpitations). But, man, the social aspect is so tricky.

Also, apparently, Paleo Medicina recommends not exercising (or perhaps only gentle exercise) until youā€™re healthy. They seem to believe it interferes with the process.

Maybe Iā€™ll book a consultation and see what they have to say. Thanks again!

(Dana S ) #446

Ozone 86:

Jason, you asked if anyone was following the PKD diet. I am.

I come from a 3 yr plus high fat carnivore background and was a carnivore coach. I didnā€™t eat organ meats. I took advice and supplemented magnesium, electrolytes, and other vitamins and minerals to combat the odd symptom. I have found continued success working with Paleomedicina and following the PKD diet as it was tweaked for my body. My high heartrate and palpitations were due to the thyroid meds, supplements, and overeating for my body. As a coach, I have learned so much more. I do not eat 400 grams of food at the 100g protein to 30g fat numbers. That was too much for me, personally and it showed though my glucose levels, ketones, energy, and weight loss. Instead of supplements I eat liver regularly mixed with ground beef. I no longer am on any kind of thyroid medicine or supplements and all my numbers and heartrate is normal. I no longer experience palpitations.

Below are my answers to your questions based solely on my experience.

1. Heart palpitations only in the hours after a very high fat meal. Need more sodium?
I would suggest working with the clinic. My guess is it is likely too much fuel for your particular body. It could also be a result of something you are eatingā€¦an inflammatory or allergen response.

2. How long does PKD typically take to heal the gut?
It depends on the person. Everyone is different. I personally experienced some symptom healing as early as the first week. I do not believe my gut is healed though. I suggest working with the clinic if you can.

3. Would you ever re-introduce plants or carbs?
I would to a small extent but I quite like being zero carb. I am not opposed to plants or carbs but I do find my health still suffers when I include them with any consistency. Perhaps once I am completely healed, I will include them from time to time.

4. How do you handle restaurants (dating is gonna be interestingā€¦) and travel?
I think because I have been eating zero carb carnivore for so long these things donā€™t bother me. I order what I want and ask for what I need. When the inquiries come, and they do come, I explain my body does not process carbs well and I feel better eating this way. As for dating, I would feel a whole lot more self conscious if I couldnā€™t walk after a meal or night out due to swelling of my joints than I do asking for what I need to maintain my health. I plan ahead when I can and try to find places that accommodate. I actually created a little business card that explains what I can eat and what I donā€™t eat. Whenever I want to be a little more discreet I will hand that to the waiter and ask for help selecting a meal that will meet the criteria.
When traveling to somewhere where food is raved over, or when on vacation, I still try to order close to my normal diet but I am not militant. If it is someplace where food is a specialty, like in Italy, I may have a taste of a dish but not choose to order one for myself. Or, I may have one meal towards the end of the trip to get the experience. Knowing how my body reacts to foods keeps me a little stricter. No food is worth missing out on site seeing or events because my body hurts too bad to enjoy the adventure. But that is me.

5. Is exercise really so discouraged? No running, lifting, backpacking, etc.? That sounds rough.
I was instructed only to walk. But as my health improves I find I am able to do more. We did not talk about doing more than walking but for now that is what I do.

Again, everyone is different. Despite being a carnivore and a carnivore coach at that, I am a middle aged overweight woman. I honestly swell up when I eat carbs and my joints all hurt. Looking at my food as a mechanism for health and good times or for pain and problems helps me stay on track.

(Edith) #447

I was wondering if you are also eating brains and bone marrow?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #448

Ah, so it has nothing to do with Loren Cordain, then?

Okay, Iā€™m assuming thatā€™s 2:1 by calories, not by weight? Otherwise, however I do the arithmetic, 2:1 by weight seems like a lot of fat.

#449

Yes, it is a lot of fat, no wonder we normal people who donā€™t need this usually donā€™t do it.
2:1 by calories isnā€™t particularly high-fat, probably most ketoers eat fattier.
But quite a few people can do 2:1 by weight especially if they need it for one reason (PKD, for health) or another (high energy need). Even I can do this ratio short term, not along with the other restrictions of PKD though due to my personal needs (regarding protein and energy, mostly. I get wrong macros with 2:1 fat:ratio by weight).

#450

ā€œNothing to do withā€ is a little strong/absolute but your point is well taken. Cordain popularized what 70ā€™s gasterontologist Walter Voegeltin (sp?) wrote about 30 years earlier - ancestral eating as a means to optimal health. Cordain just did a brilliant job of packaging it and marketing it in the internet age. To his credit, heā€™s very clear lately in recognizing he didnā€™t really invent the way of eating other than to shine a light on it in a way that resonated with many (like me).

(Jason) #451

@Dana_S, thanks so much for sharing. Itā€™s very encouraging to hear someone else thatā€™s finding success with this.

How long have you been following the PKD?

It never occurred to me before, but it might make sense that Iā€™m eating too much. Iā€™ve always been active and trying to promote strength and conditioning: and more fuel is always better, right? But Iā€™ve noticed that eating a lot of protein makes me tired and eating a lot of fat causes palpitations. Maybe Iā€™m eating too much of both!

Also, what was your first consultation like? Did they request any records or testing beforehand?

I eat some bone marrow several times per week. Nowhere near PMā€™s recommendations, though. Itā€™s expensive to have shipped from a quality source.

Iā€™ve also been taking some desiccated organ tablets with liver, brain, and some other things. Iā€™m wondering if fresh liver might be better. Itā€™s not my favorite thing, though, and I worry about Vitamin A toxicity.

(Dana S ) #453

Yes, I include marrow as I have not found a source of brain.

(Dana S ) #454

I have been following since June 6, 2022ā€¦so only a couple of months so far but with quick results. I am down about 30 lbs, drastically improved bloodwork, and vitals. Plus no thyroid or supplementation.

The first consult, they go over any records you have, your current health, concerns, goals, and what to expect. 2nd and 3rd consult is with nutritionist, and then I paid for a follow up with Dr to go over new medical records. I was in daily contact with both for about 20 days and they tweaked along the way.

The PKD advises against all supplements including the organ tablets. I definitely noticed a difference between fresh and supplement. I am not a fan either but I usually incorporate liver with my marrow, and use a 1:1 ratio to ground beef, nicely salted. It is decent that way and i have it regularly. I do not go anywhere close to 800 grams a week. Vitamin A toxicity is of no concern at levels under 800 g a week and they recommend 400 to start. Keep in mind recommendations change based on individual needs and responses.

I find I am saving a lot more money now too. No meds, no supplements, not eating as much, making the cost of things like marrow not a concern.

Lastly. They said too much fat makes you tired. I tested this and found it true. It also gives me digestive upset. Too much protein gives me leg cramps. I also see higher glucose numbers.

I should mention I eat conventional beef only as I have 2 standalone freezers full. My marrow and liver comes from Wild Forks. So, i have not gone out of my way for high end meats yet and still finding success.

Highly recommend the clinic. Hope this insight helps.

(Jason) #455

@Dana_S

This is so helpful. Thank you.

Itā€™s true: The supplements for my SIBO protocol and desiccated organs are very expensive. I picked up several pounds of grass-finished marrow bones and liver this morning at the local farmerā€™s market. It was pretty affordable. I could save so much money, even if I pay for the consultations with PM.

Also Iā€™ve experimented with smaller meals in the last day or so. It has already helped. They really seem to be onto something.

Iā€™m convinced. I will book a consultation with PM. Thank you again for sharing your experiences. I know I am merely some internet stranger, but if this works, it could change my life. And I know several people who are struggling with issues similar to mine. If I find success with this, as you have, I will guide them in this direction, too.

(Dana S ) #457

Good luck! Hopefully you wonā€™t require the strictness I do. I wonā€™t say it is always easy but far better than being sick. Worth it.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) split this topic #458

5 posts were split to a new topic: IceCrystalā€™s accountability thread

(Van Phillips) #459

they donā€™t have access to fatty meat, and the lactose in their milk keeps them low in ketones, plus they burn the ketones they produce.

(Bob M) #460

This software isnā€™t great. I have no idea to which post of mine youā€™re replying.

(Jane) #461

Cluck on your icon in the upper right corner of the post and it should take you to the post they replied to.

#462

Is that a forum technique requiring a :rooster: chicken?

#463

Hello, I finally think I understand the meat measurements for PKD but need some clarification on the organ/liver part. You seem to have a lot of experience, so perhaps you can help.

  1. Is it 400g of liver per week?
  2. Is the liver to be included in your overall 400g of meat/fat per day?
  3. Is it 200g of bone marrow per week?
  4. How is it possible to measure bone marrow when it just melts out of the bone?
  5. Do you roast bone marrow or cook it in meat broth?