P:E discussion on Twitter, Amber O'Hearn versus Ted Naiman

[ajbennett]

Jack have you read Ted’s book? I haven’t yet but probably will. You analysis above seems spot on and least that is my sense of it right now.

I’m probably 2/3 of the way through it. It’s highly visual and very accessible so it’s a pretty fast read. If you have seen his web sites you already have an idea of what the book looks like.

The one sentence summary would be: eat at least as many protein grams as your ideal body weight, don’t overeat food energy (carbs or fat), don’t eat carbs and fat together in the same food, and try to keep your daily carbs confined to one meal or in a narrow time window of the day. (Which is apparently Cian Foley’s message as well, based on what I heard on Fat Emperor podcast, though I haven’t read his book yet.)

[RightNOW]

The carb timing question is interesting: does the body handle carbs better if they are confined to specific times, away from when you eat fat? (And is there a real metabolic advantage to the recommendation of “don’t eat carbs and fat together” or does that just work because it prohibits highly addictive, half-fat-half-carb junk food combos?)

I thought it was that if you eat many carbs, you increase your insulin a lot, but without the glucagon that eating protein/meat would add, so whatever fat you ate, would get instantly stuffed into fat cells… as opposed to spending more time in the bloodstream to be used as energy and keeping you satiated. ?

[Fruno]

I find Dr. Naiman all over the map on carbs. He talks about 100g at night and then elsewhere extols the benefits of very low carb. He uses phrases may, might, maybe a lot. Also, he does not speak much about his clinical successes. He does not cite much science. Okay, so I get that clinical experience is better in some aspects than studies.

I’ll dispute that Doctors will remember only the returning patients, which may be a very twisted view of reality. Just for the sake of the argument, say a doctor has a method that helps 1/3rd of the patients really well and does nothing for the remaining 2/3rd. I’m sure he’ll be convinced that his method helps almost all patients because the “good” 1/3 will return and give positive feedback, while most of the “bad” 2/3 will look for another doctor. That’s why it’s always good to know that your personal experience is backed up by science and statistics.

I do think he’s right with “may, might, maybe” though. I remember some talks on low carb down under that pointed out that some patients have gluconeogenesis in overdrive: As Bikman points out, there is no insulin spike from protein if you’re on a ketogenic diet for most people. But the ones in “gluconeogenesis overdrive” will convert a lot of protein into glucose and have an insulin spike from protein even on keto. I believe I’m in this group, as mentioned in another thread my weight loss has completely the moment I went on carnivore, I even put on some more weight. (And it’s not muscle buildup.)

We do know that the feedback loop controlling gluconeogenesis is broken for some diabetics and gluconeogenesis has to be stopped with medication, but I don’t think we know what exactly goes on. I guess that loop could be broken for prediabetics (like me) too. But personally I’ll hold out hope that time will repair the feedback loop for me, because I certainly prefer beef over salad

[Justin_Jordan]

He talks about 100g at night and then elsewhere extols the benefits of very low carb.

The podcast linked above discusses exactly that. His thinking has changed. When he started going low carb, he eventually started thinking that zero carb was the way, and the higher fat the better. And then he sort of did that with fats - he biased protein, and so he thought it didn’t matter if you cut fats really low.

His basic thinking right now is that fat and carb intake both fall on U shaped curves - too much of either is bad, but too little is bad as well. Contextually, he’s not saying they’re equally bad in either direction. He very definitely think overconsuming carbs is worse, and that underconsuming fats is worse.

But his main concern is satiety and body composition.

I think the might and maybes are actually a function of clinical experience. Because people have different metabolic states, and different contexts.

I mean, for instance, I’ve got more muscle (and bone - I’m somewhat taller but have much thicker joints) than Naiman. But waaaay more bodyfat. At a similar level of body fat I’d outweight him by twenty pounds or so. But I actually outweigh him by sixty.

So what works for him wouldn’t necessarily work for me, diet wise. And vice versa. I’ve got a lot of stored body fat, so I’m likely not going to experience the same kind of hunger and effects if I drive down carbs and fat.

My best friend is and always has been a naturally lean, muscular guy. And his appetite and bodyweight scales really well with activity - when he was laid up after surgery he dropped like twenty pounds, and then regained it when he was healthy.

But I know for sure he just can’t reasonably push his diet in ways I can.

I actually like this about Naiman - I find anyone who is overcertain about complex things and doesn’t evolve their thinking over time to be a little suspect.

[Justin_Jordan]

At least in the interview above, his own personal eating style is that he eats carbs (and here he’s talking stuff like potatoes) at the same meal he eats protein and vegetables, he just eats those things first.

So he doesn’t seem to be recommending all carb meals, as such.

[Justin_Jordan]

Anyway, this seems to be as good a place to any to talk about this - I’m currently experimenting with pushing my protein up. My aim is approximately 180 - 200 grams a day. That’s higher than the gram per pound of (approximate) lean body mass, but not ridiculously so.

I’m biasing a bit higher because I’m still fasting two non consecutive days a week.

Yesterday I went higher than intended, around 275 grams of protein (and about 2400 calories overall) and I’m fasting today. And while it’s entirely possible this is placebo and/or food volume at the last meal (I ate a pound of lean chicken breast around six last night) I still don’t even want to eat.

My hunger and satiety signals are somewhere between muted and non existent, but normally fifteenish hours after my last meal I’d certain want to eat. Today though, nothing. If I tried to eat, I’d be forcing.

So it’ll be interesting to see if this persists with somewhat lower protein levels and consistent eating.

[daddyoh]

@Justin_Jordan @ajbennett @Fruno @RightNOW

Thanks all for the thoughtful analysis. I think I realized I have a blind spot. 100g carb a day - wham, stop listening critically. I will get the book and read it. I appreciate everyone’s nuanced views.

Thanks