Oxalates and possible reason some people get sick on carnivore

(Edith) #52

@FrankoBear, I’m not sure. I just joined the carnivore subgroup of the Trying Low Oxalate Facebook group. I can pose a question there.

Most things I’ve read there so far pertain to dumping too quickly/severely due to carnivore being pretty much zero oxalate. I’ve seen suggestions of eating a few squares of dark chocolate (preferably 100%) or drinking some black tea each day to slow things down. One thing that I have read on the group which I am going to look into more is they suggest using potassium bicarbonate in water, I believe to make things more alkaline.

I’m at the end of an annoying dumping episode that seems to have gotten triggered by taking antibiotics for a sinus infection. I hadn’t been sick for over three years. (Coincidence or carnivore?)
My lips peeled, I had crusty eyes when I awoke, sandy colored diarrhea, and terrible joint pain - especially in my lower back. That’s finally coming to an end. It does not seem to cause heart arrhythmias for me.

I was tied up with family business over the weekend and haven’t had a chance to delve into the potassium bicarbonate, in particular, more deeply. I have also seen where they suggest citrate forms of magnesium and epsom salt baths to help with dumping. I’m hoping to look into all this today.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #53

I believe it’s because we can eat quite a bit of spinach before hitting the 20 g limit, and therefore people don’t feel so deprived of carbohydrate.

Bear in mind that our understanding of what’s going on tends to run in cycles. When I joined the forums a few years ago, the big problem was how bad people felt from the Candida albicans die-off that resulted from depriving one’s yeast infection of glucose. Now it’s oxalate-dumping. I don’t mean to minimise either problem, just to point out that there will always be some sort of issue or other that can result from any major dietary change.

We also need to bear in mind the logical fallacy known as post hoc, propter hoc (meaning “It occurred afterward, so it’s a result”). Naturally, quite often the symptoms that occur after a dietary change are related to the change, but we should always bear in mind the possibility that they are unrelated. This is important, because the symptom(s) in question may reflect the presence of a medical condition that needs to be addressed, one that coincidentally revealed itself at the same time as we went keto/carnivore/etc. We always need to be aware of our assumptions.

#54

I’m no expert on it - just a perpetual student and experimenter, that’s for sure.

The connection between acidification/de-acidification with hormones and toxins has several fascinating angles. pH is a particularly renal thing - the balance is maintained by the kidneys and ascertained via urine levels. Another thing is that though sugar is not in itself acidic, it feeds bad bacteria and they in turn release acid byproducts. So acidification is also has a gut/microbiome aspect.

Without the mineralization of alkalinizing input via trace minerals (whether through foods or supplements like ancient salts - the benefit of veg/fruit foods is that they also usually contain tons of antioxidants which are helpful for cellular health), there is hormonal havoc pertaining to cortisol and sex hormones due in part to lack of proper nutrient absorption over time. Dr. Anna Cabeca’s books have a lot more about this.

Developmentally, observing young children who have access to a range of in-season or dried garden/wild/stored foods from an early age is informative. They love to sample different things, not just proteins, as they search for any minerals their body requires as it fluctuates daily (and mother’s milk also fluctuates in anticipation of that, quite remarkably). Non-nurslings frequently will even eat dirt/clay and/or bark to satisfy their roving quest for whatever minerals or mineralization is needed. The human child under 3-4 tends to love strongly alkalinizing things like lemons and sour plums/gooseberries (and other things like pickles when they’re not peppered) - as well as certain clay/dirt - due to their stage of palate/brain development which makes such things taste very pleasant, and possibly even sweet, ensuring that they avail themselves of it whenver needed. This is often obscured in industrial culture environments where children hardly spend any time outdoors and/or have a monodiet of packaged foods :crying_cat_face:

(Jane Srygley) #55

I don’t believe that’s accurate. These bacteria are easily killed by antibiotics, so the problem tends to be that even if we had them initially, they are very likely to have been killed off in most of us.

(Edith) #56

But… boiling vegetables also leeches out potassium which is what causes the vegetables to be alkalizing in the first place. You would need to drink the water to get the potassium which means you would also get the oxalate.

(Anna ) #57

In the Trying Low Oxalates (TLO) group, which I have been a member of now 3 years, they suggest when eating foods that contain oxalate, eat those foods with some Calcium Citrate. The oxalates in the meal with bind to the Calcium. Citrate supplements are recommended as they seem to help kidneys excrete urinary citrate and decrease your risk for calcium stones. Yes, lemon water would help as well, but when you have health issues and must keep your oxalate slow, supplements are just the easy way to go.

Since I don’t eat dairy, that was my preferred way of dealing with it and after lowering my oxalates and supplementing with Calcium Citrate for 2 years, I didn’t seem to have all those issues with oxalates, although I’m still on a low/med oxalate diet, and have to watch my intake. Since I don’t eat foods that are high oxalates often, I no longer supplement with calcium citrate at every meal. I will still take some calcium citrate after eating baked goods that use almond flour, since almonds are high in oxalates.

(Anna ) #58

Many of the people that have issues with oxalates, had also had many rounds of antibiotics in their lives, and their microbiomes are neither healthy or intact. There is evidence that oxalate issues and D-Lactic acidosis are related. There is some mention of that in some of the medical studies, but D-Lactic Acidosis is still one of those problems that is under the radar, as is oxalates, unless you actually have kidney stones. Most people won’t know that they have issues with oxalates until they pass a kidney stone or change their diet significantly, and start dumping oxalates. Most people won’t know they have issues with D-Lactic Acid, very few get a major case of lactic acidoses and end up in the emergency room. Most just have mild Lactic Acidosis that just makes them sick for a few days.

I am one of those people that has oxalate and D-Lactic Acid issues. I can’t eat foods that contain most of the Lactobacillus strains and some of the Acidophilus strains. Since this hasn’t been studied very well, I just avoid all foods with Lactobacillus and Acidophilus and all fermented foods. Most commercial fermented foods like yogurt and sourkroutuse are started with Lactobacillus. I also can’t eat most fibers, because even if I avoid eating foods high in lactic acid, there are microbes in my gut that make it, and they feed on sugar and fiber to most extent. Therefore a keto diet is ideal for people like me, especially the carnivore diet. But if you have issues with oxalates, it’s very hard to just go carnivore, you have to reduce your oxalate levels slowly, you don’t want to dump and end up hurting your kidneys. So the ones that can really benefit from going carnivore, have a hard time doing so.

(Bunny) #59

…unless they are drinking lemon water…

(Anna ) #60

If it was that simple, don’t you think the 26,000 members of the Trying Low Oxalates group would have figured that out? Susan Owens, who runs the group, is a researcher, she has developed a low oxalate diet for kids with autism. There is no one simple fix for oxalates.

#61

Recently the skin on my feet and ankles have been peeling. I wasn’t sure what was going on but I think I came across a mention of ox dumping causing peeling skin. Think it could be related?
I joined the TLO group as well but haven’t read through all of the units yet.

(Edith) #62

Yup, that is definitely a symptom I’ve seen mentioned. I believe @FrankoBear even posted a picture of his peeling legs.

#63

It was pretty weird. I’m over 4 months in. I noticed my heel was peeling but I thought it might be my sandal strap rubbing it but there was no pain involved, then my feet started peeling like I’d been sunburned. Weird stuff and I’ll be glad when it’s out of my system. Also have had some weird joint pain in a shoulder I injured years ago. That seems to be diminishing. I thought I’d irritated the old injury by overdoing it but now I’m not so sure.

(Edith) #64

I’ve also read that the oxalate crystals like to deposit in places that have been injured so… maybe shoulder trouble is related?

Cheryl's 90 Day Carnivore Challenge: Started on Nov 01 going through to Feb 29, 2020
#65

I agree about the compromised microbiome issue - and I think gut transformation is the most promising areas of health & healing really.

Susan Owens has amassed wonderful non-medical resources and it’s good that lots of info-sharing is going on. Everything’s not for everybody, there’s no one-size-fits-all approach, and we live in a time of ever-increasing complexity - so I’m personally very intrigued with how we can heal a huge range of issues through both nutrient density and nutrient assimilation within a good degree of dietary cultural diversity.

Some of my favoraties are superfoods & spices (adaptogens like Ginger, Turmeric, Cinnamon) and traditional mineralizing remedies whose usages go back around 6000 years. I think to many in high tech industrial culture (especially the more privileged in the world) foods-as-medicines can sometimes seem just too simple to be powerful, frankly. It took me many years myself to understand such traditional medicines as foundational relationships with one’s own region, family culture, and land.
And I’ve learned a that comprehensive remedies can be deceptively simple in their humble appearance. Such as (to name a few) Lemon, unpasteurized Apple Cider Vinegar (and other live-fermented wonders like red wine and pickled veg), Living Clay (calcium bentonite, used internally and externally), Coral Calcium, Charcoal, Aloe Vera, and even raw Milk from pastured non-hybrid cows. These traditional medicines have varying protocols related to their absorption and adsorption qualities.

The histories of usage related to all these is a continuing area of my own study - 1) many are cheap if they’re regional 2) they heal root causes of issues 3) they’re applicable to non-industrial settings throughout the global south. Obviously the profit margin for the single earth-sourced remedies is very small compared to standardized pharmaceuticals and/or nutriceuticals which practitioners both conventional and functional are selling.

I also really appreciate the work of Grace Liu PhD (Pharm.D) - all about gut healing & digestion as the path of restoring a warrior gut (focused mostly on athletes and those who’ve gotten in gut trouble after 6-7 years of longterm strict keto or carnivore). She tests for specific bacteria strains to compose customized probiotic support, primarily from soil-based organisms, involving many more organisms than the commonly known ones. This is one of her presentations:

https://www.enduranceplanet.com/dr-grace-liu-how-to-build-a-warrior-gut-common-and-solvable-gut-issues-in-athletes-and-more/

Her supplier for her own probiotics is Custom Probiotics (founded by Harry Bronozian, a chemist and chemical engineer) a huge line of probiotic strains & combos that most folks have never heard of and one can order directly from CP at a huge savings (though these are pricey, each bottle is a 4 month regimen supply).

There’s also the vast research of Microbiologist Norm Robillard PhD, who I learned about via Dr. Michael & Mary Dan Eades (authors of the LCHF/keto classic Protein Power) also focuses on gut motility related to excess fermentation, and ways to restore balance - with a lot of SIBO cases. His book Fast Tract Digestion is another great resource.

Since I had a very delicious bulletproof coffee today (with cacao butter, irish butter, MCTs) and fasted from protein & carbs for about 20 hours, I found it easy to write out my flow on this - hoping some of it can help you or others.

(Jane Srygley) #66

Awesome post thank you so much!

Really appreciate all the responses :heart:

(Edith) #67

Hi @FrankoBear ,

I’ve given your question about oxalates and metabolic acidosis a lot of thought and done some research, although probably not to the extent you do research.

I read through the article listed by @amwassil. I found it quite interesting and wanted to mention some thoughts and questions I had from the article.

“The consumption of industrialized diets with a low content of fruits and vegetables, together with a high consumption of products of animal origin and cereals, are characterized by having a positive PRAL, …”

The article mentions animal products and cereal having high PRAL. Does this matter if one is only eating animal products and no grains? (Again, low carb or no carb maybe having different physiological needs or responses where PRAL is concerned?)

“The metabolism of the potassium salts found in fruits and vegetables, including citrate and malate, leads to the consumption of hydrogen ions and, consequently, to an alkalizing effect. Considering this, the concentration of potassium in the food reflects the alkalizing capacity of fruits and vegetables, although the potassium content of the food can be affected by the cooking method, being significantly reduced after cooking the food in water.”

Animal foods have a fair bit of potassium in them as well. Wouldn’t the potassium in animal foods also have an alkalizing effect? Also, many of the plants listed in the table showing low PRAL levels are actually considered high oxalate foods.

“The presence of oxalate in the food prevents the metabolization of potassium and the subsequent production of alkalis, contributing to the production of acids due to oxalic acid.”

“Some foods rich in oxalate are beets, spinach, Swiss chard, blackberries, cherries, grapes, raspberries, among others. It is important to consider that the composition of micronutrients will determine a negative PRAL, however the publications suggests not to include them in the diet due to the oxalate content.”

Spinach has the most negative PRAL of the vegetables listed in the table, but as we know, it is also very high in oxalate. Many of the vegetables listed in the table are medium to high oxalate. Does that negate the negative PRAL? Cooking the vegetables in water can remove some of the oxalate but it also leeches out the potassium. Does that also negate the negative PRAL?

Looking at the table provided, the PRAL isn’t as negative for the fruits and vegetables as the animal foods are positive. Considering that many of those plant foods are. medium to high oxalate, would that actually shift them more towards neutral? If so, then neutral plant foods would have no effect on alkalizing the animal foods.

I looked up metabolic acidosis (MA): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_acidosis
There is acute and chronic MA. They seemed to be caused by health problems, particularly kidney problems. Acute acidosis can be caused by excessive amounts of organic acids. Oxalates? Isn’t that one of the problems that can be caused by reducing oxalate too quickly? If so, the MA is caused by oxalate dumping as a result of removing them from the diet, not carnivore causing the MA. But… over time, can the carnivore diet cause kidney damage, and therefore chronic MA in the long run?

I’m definitely dumping oxalate from changing over to carnivore. I also believe the problems I developed over my two years on keto were a result of eating a lot of oxalate containing foods: “healthy” greens, almonds, peanuts, berries, etc.

I definitely want to see if carnivore will help me get rid of my joint, especially back, pain. I’m willing to have a more acidic diet (if that is really a problem) over the relatively short term and give carnivore a try. Maybe once the dumping is down to a minimum I won’t need carnivore anymore. I’ve seen posts on the Trying Low Oxalate Facebook (TLO) group who mentioned similar problems to me, one of which was becoming more and more intolerant to all kinds of foods. They felt that lowering their oxalate load improved food tolerance. For example, some people who were intolerant to dairy found that after some time, they could once again have dairy in their diet. I wouldn’t mind not having to be so paranoid about dairy, that’s for sure.

I haven’t had a chance to read up on bicarbonate enough to make a post about it. That will be for next time.

(Anna ) #68

If you dig enough on the old posts on Trying Low Oxalate Facebook (TLO) group you might find my posts about my struggle with oxalates and then so many other foods. I was a raw vegan for two years and screwed myself royally eating lots and lots of high oxalate foods, and green smoothies daily. When I started to realize the diet was causing me harm, I switched to Paleo, and started to eat high amounts of baked good using almond flour and other seeds and nuts. That diet didn’t last long because I started to realize that I was having issues with so many foods. The first thing I dumped was gluten, and that made it a little better but then I realized I was having issues with foods that were high in salicylates and phenols. I started having allergic reactions when I took aspirin (a major source of salicylates) with my eyes and my face swelling. My nose would run non stop when I would die my hair or eat certain fruit. Plus I had IBS, and abdominal pain. I kept a detailed food diary and started to notice more and more foods bothering me. I had to give up all foods that are seeds, which included all beans, including coffee beans and chocolate, and all nuts. I had to give up eggs and dairy, which made me start eating meat, needing some source of protein. I went on a low Salicylate diet. Besides all of this crap I was dealing with, I also was dealing with my migraines, so I was also on a migraine diet, which eliminated foods high in amines. Very frustrated I decided to go on an elimination diet and figure out which food was really bothering me, and in what way. Which food triggered migraines, which food caused face swelling, which food gave me gut pain and IBS, which food made my nose run, etc.

I seemed to be allergic and reacting to everything I ate. So on January 2017 I started out eating chicken breast, white rice, green beans and pears. These are the foods that most people do not react to. About a week later I got super sick with fever, a very painful UTI and two days later just before my mom was about to drag me off to an emergency room, found about oxalate dumping. Ate some oxalates right away and started to improve. Dove into research on food sensitivities and oxalates and after just 6 months of counting the oxalates in my food, and lowering them very slowly, I stopped having issues with salicylates. I’ve been on a low/med oxalate diet since then. I avoid most of the high oxalate foods, some that I love too much, I will just have a little bit. I’m always mindful that this issue with oxalates might never go away, and I should just avoid high oxalate foods. I can now eat eggs, and many of the foods that I could not tolerate. Although dairy is still a problem for me. I also made this situation worse by being a carboholic all my life. Now I realize I have an issue with mild D-Lactic Acidosis, and when I feel crappy, I drink sodium bicarbonate in water every few hours and take NAC supplements. That seems to help, plus avoiding lactate, foods rich in lactic acid, foods that contain lactic acid, foods fermented with lacobacillus, and probiotics contains strains that produce D-lactic acid. Also, no sugar and very little fiber since that’s what the microbes like to eat. I’m getting better all the time, and going keto has definitely helped. Considering that 2014/2015 I had such brain fog and fatigue, and was in so much pain daily with joint and muscle pains and migraines that for 6 months I stopped driving and working, and I thought I would never recover. I’ve only been keto 2 months but slowly I feel like I’m returning to normal. I am 99% sure that a mild D-Lactic acidosis is causing my migraines. The last piece to my puzzle was that these microbes also feed on magnesium supplements and as a migraine sufferer, I have always supplemented with lots of mag. I am no switching to a topical mag. Since I continuously do research on this subject, I’m sure I will continue to find new info that will help me. The rabbit hole is very deep and the medical establishment doesn’t seem to have a lot of this info, and it’s not studying this.

(Edith) #69

Thanks for sharing all that.

#70

I agree Paul. Symptoms (like epidemiology) just aren’t enough. Verification through testing, serial testing, or triangulation of grouped biomarkers are an important next step on the observation of the symptoms.

It would be good to identify the calcium oxalate crystals at the time of the symptoms.

#71

You’re welcome so much! :heart: