Oscilating between catabolic and anabolic states


(Ethan) #1

I have seen a lot of talk in other places, and a bit here, about, “building muscle while burning fat.” I’d like to learn more about this from a scientific standpoint. In the past, I have seen research that showed it was only possible to do BOTH at the same time for a short period. In those studies, patients were put on caloric-deficit diets to lose weight. The patients only had the ability to build muscle and lose fat in the initial phase of beginning the diet AND exercising. That is, they could–for about 12 weeks–somehow be in both a catabolic state (losing weight) and anabolic state (gaining weight). I suspect they were actually oscillating between the two states.

I haven not, however, found any research about this for people on a ketogenic diet. We know CICO isn’t totally correct. I have also always been told that the body cannot be in both catabolic and anabolic states at the same time. But we also see that ketosis seems to allow this. I remember hearing from one doctor that it could be possible through feasting and fasting to oscillate between the states, but he shrugged off the difficulty of such a lifestyle. He thought it would only be possible for the most devoted (most time available) athlete to accomplish this. I think perhaps extended fasting and feasting while not fasting could somehow allow those of us non-athletes to do it, too.

Does anybody have any science on this?


#2

I am interested in this too.Right now I am doing so called recompostion where I gain muscle and burn fat in such a way that my weight doesnt change.

But I would like to start cutting fat more rapidly and loosing overall weight.If you find any interesting studies,post link here,I will do the same thing.

I think it depends on hormones,caloric deficit and bodyfat and muscle mass.High bodyfat,high testosterone & growth hormone and small caloric deficit and muscle mass ( noob gains ) should maximize gains while cutting.

I think for young man with muscle mass far away from natural limit,gaining muscle while cutting 500 calories a day might be possible down to 20% bodyfat,from 20% to 10% its possible to prevent muscle loss but not gain muscle,and sub 10% without steroids is catabolic to muscle,gains impossible on cut at 10%.

Thats just my uneducated rough guess,but I think its not too far off.


(Bunny) #3

Does not specifically address your question but you could extract some useful information from it! :upside_down_face:

Published on Apr 5, 2018 Build Muscle on a Keto Diet: Nutrition Science - Thomas DeLauer

Protein Intake

In order to gain muscle, you need to have a positive nitrogen balance - nitrogen balance compares the amount of nitrogen coming into the body to the amount being lost

If you’re consuming more than you’re losing, you’re in positive nitrogen balance - gaining muscle

If you’re losing more than you’re consuming, you’re in negative nitrogen balance - losing muscle

Study

Journal of Applied Physiology

Observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period - Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload

bHB & Muscle Sparing

Even if your protein intake is low, the ketogenic diet can still elicit a muscle sparing effect

One study published in the Journal of Clinical Investigation found that beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB) decreases leucine oxidation and promote protein synthesis in humans

Protein Synthesis & No Carbs

Study published in the Journal of Applied Physiology had two groups of participants that consisted of 6 weeks of calorie matched high carb or very low carb ketogenic segments

After 6 weeks subjects did a resistance training bout and researchers looked at muscle protein synthesis - found that both groups increased protein synthesis to the same extent

Protein is able to stimulate protein synthesis without the aid of carbs - also leucine has been shown to stimulate protein synthesis

Training & the Phosphagen System

No carbs or fats are used in this system - the regeneration of ATP comes solely from stored creatine phosphate, which allows cells to replenish energy more quickly than any other energy system

This is why the phosphagen system is the predominant energy system used for all-out exercise lasting up to around 10 seconds

However, there is a limited amount of stored creatine phosphate and ATP in skeletal muscles, which is why fatigue occurs rapidly at higher intensities of activity

Keto vs Traditional Study

Study published in the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition looked at the effects of a ketogenic diet on skeletal muscle

The effect of this diet directly compared the effects of a traditional high-carbohydrate diet to the ketogenic diet

26 resistance-trained men participated in the study and were split into two groups:

5% CHO, 75% Fat, 20% Protein (Ketogenic Diet) 55% CHO, 25% Fat, 20% Protein (Traditional Western Diet)

After 11 weeks, the results were as follows:
The ketogenic diet resulted in a 2.1 kg greater lean body mass increase.

Fat mass decreased on the ketogenic diet by 2.2 kg (0.7 kg greater than the Western diet group).

References

  1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC303494/
  1. https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/gain-weight#muscle
  1. http://siimland.com/how-to-build-muscle-on-keto/
  1. https://ketogains.com/2016/01/protein-synthesis-without-carbs/
  1. https://www.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/japplphysiol.00837.2015

The ATP cycle sort of works like this:

ADP + energy + phosphate ----> ATP
ATP ----> used in cellular work ----> ADP + P (energy) ADP + P + energy from cellular respiration ----> ATP Synthase —> ATP

So basically, energy is only released when ATP is used up for cellular work (e.g. Na/K pump), and this energy is because of the TRI-phosphate bond, where the extra phosphate bond gives it energy. ADP, or the product after ATP is used up, has a DI-phosphate bond, which has a net zero of potential energy to be used. …More


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(Ken) #4

It depends on what you define as a Ketogenic Diet.

Yes, you can build muscle while eating lipolytically. However, once derangement is reduced or eliminated you can’t lose fat and add muscle at the same time. For a cut, you typically aim for a 500 Cal daily deficit, and keep maintenance training so you don’t lose muscle. Lyle McDonald figured this out nearly 20 years ago.


(Jay AM) #5

Can’t tell you one way or another but, this might be interesting. It’s the ending video of a 4000 calorie a day for 21 days eating in ketosis challenge by a fitness model. The results aren’t extreme (but, to be fair, he’s already near 5.0% body fat when he started)