Olive oil: Harcombe vs Phinney?

(BuckRimfire) #1

Can’t find the source (maybe a tweet?), but not long ago I read something from Zoe Harcombe which, IIRC, condemned consumption of olive oil.

Steve Phinney, OTOH, is a big proponent of olive oil, and said in at least one of the Low Carb Down Under videos that he has personally had his gallon jugs of “Kirkland” brand olive oil from Costco tested at his own expense (about $200) on two different occasions to verify that they are real olive oil, and not adulterated with seed oils as some “evoo” is known to be (Costco passed).

Since Phinney has been doing low-carb research since probably when Harcombe was in kindergarten*, I’m inclined to bet he’s correct in the absence of other information. Does anyone know what evidence Harcombe cites against olive oil? Or am I just confused about what she said?

*My efforts to find her birth date were limited to checking Wikipedia. There is no entry there for her.

(Doug) #2

https://www.zoeharcombe.com/the-knowledge/

Olive oil has 9 times the saturated fat of pork and I thought, uh-oh, but then:

Olive oil has 14g of saturated fat per 100g of product; United State Department of Agriculture example food – pork chop, boneless, raw, lean and fat – has 1.5g of saturated fat per 100g. Not that any real fat is better or worse than any other, but just to correct much nonsense said about both olive oil and red meat.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Olive_Oil_Can_Tap_Dance/YQZgAgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1

She thinks it can tap dance… :smile:

(Bob M) #3

Olive oil has not been tested to any extent. This is one of the few RCTs I know of:

image

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2166702/

There is nothing special about olive oil. I tend to avoid it, but do like a salad every once in while.

Costco has some great olive oil from California.

(Doug) #4

This is a good point. If it does not say “Extra Virgin…” then it’s a huge red flag to start with. It’s also true that the container saying that is not a perfect guarantee, and fake/adulerated olive oil is a big thing, over much of the world.

I just saw (in a ‘Restaurant Depot’ store in the U.S.) 3 liter cans marked “Olive Oil.” The fine print showed only 10% olive oil, and not even extra virgin at that. The rest was seed oils - UGH! Made for restaurants and made to be really cheap. Just a nasty blend.

To a large extent, I think your own smell and taste is a good guide. But it’s still a minefield out there.

Depressing reading:

(bulkbiker) #5

From what I have read of her she doesn’t “condemn” it but simply asks why it has such a health halo when its not that great.

As for the greatness of Phinney just look at his stance on fasting… complete nonsense.

(Bob M) #6

The bummer for me is that I used to eat olives from a nice store near me. These were the kind in packages and with pits. I ate tons of them…until one day I looked at the label and saw “sunflower oil” on them. Yikes!

Used to eat “fresh” anchovies, too. Again, sunflower oil.

Had this in my Amazon wish list for a while:

Until I realized it was packed in…sunflower oil. (Apparently, it used to be packed only in olive oil; now it’s a mix of sunflower and olive oil.)

Bummer.

I do buy olives from Costco that are in brine (NOT oil).

(Doug) #7

Truly a “WTF?” moment. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

I recently got some “Zaytun” olive oil from Tunisia, and it’s really good - buttery, aromatic, and still with that herbal bite on the back end. I just took a shot of it, and it seems perfect to me, but I wonder - they could sneak in some other stuff and I still probably wouldn’t know.

(Bunny) #8

Some things I like look for is:

  1. No additives

  2. Is it cold pressed, not heat extracted or chemically extracted (which means it will be real high in polyphenols which could be removed to make supplements like Lipton does to the green tea)

  3. No preservatives

  4. How long has it been sitting on a shelf before it starts missing electrons (rancid/oxidized)?

(Gregory - You can teach an old dog new tricks.) #9

Good point… I always count electrons…:grin:

#10

I planted an olive tree. Sometimes the green parrots fly in and want me to share the crop. We take what we need and the parrots can have the rest. My Sicilian parents-in-law have decades old trees in their suburban backyard and we get jars from ‘nonna’ that last a long time and are delicious.

#11

This information is from 2010:

Now for some common sense – olive oil is oil squeezed out of mashed olives (we do the same with avocados and make avocado oil – avocados must have a different PR Agency). Olive oil with acid levels below 1% can be called “extra virgin” and 1-3% acid levels can be called “virgin” (I have no idea what virginity has to do with any of this!) Non virgin olive oil is more acidic than this…(1)

It’s a useful food – good for salad dressing; butter and lard are better for cooking (saturated fats are chemically more stable) – but that’s it. (1)

  1. https://www.zoeharcombe.com/2010/04/olive-oil-can-tap-dance/

From 2020 (pay to view content)

I have not since found any evidence that saturated fat can raise LDL-cholesterol, let alone that it does. This brings us to a classic article for this week’s note, which was published in January 2018 (Ref 1). The study also featured on a BBC programme around that time. The article was called “ Randomised trial of coconut oil, olive oil or butter on blood lipids and other cardiovascular risk factors in healthy men and women ”, which makes it rare and important in our world. Not many randomised controlled trials are undertaken in the field of nutrition and this one was also conducted on healthy people and so is generalisable to healthy people. (2)

  1. https://www.zoeharcombe.com/2020/04/coconut-oil-olive-oil-butter-ldl-cholesterol/

From my scant quick look, it seems Dr. Harcombe does not condemn the consumption of olive oil. Rather, she does not see it as anything special as purported in some main stream media reporting. It is a source of fats that don’t seem to be biologically toxic and that is its relevance to nutritional ketosis.

(Bob M) #12

I wonder that too. The California olive oil (from Costco) is a mix from 3 olives (and they list them on the label) and to me has a grassy initial hit with a peppery back end. I think that would be hard to fake, but it’s tough to tell.

(Bunny) #13

Missing electrons; reactive oxygen species = cancer?

“…The free radical chain reaction may lead to broken cell membranes, which can alter what enters and exits the cell, according to the Harvard School of Public Health. The chain reaction may change the structure of a lipid, making it more likely to become trapped in an artery. The damaged molecules may mutate and grow tumors. Or, the cascading damage may change DNA code. …” …More

OMG Gawd that’s funny, you should be a comedian :slightly_smiling_face::slightly_smiling_face::rofl::joy::rofl::+1:

(Bunny) #14

Quoting myself: “polyphenols” mimic “caloric restriction“ besides many other benefits. It is what you call a mimetic.

Footnotes:

[1] Conclusions: These observations indicated that the polyphenol-rich antioxidant supplement containing pomegranate extract, green tea extract, and ascorbic acid has important antagonizing effects on oxidative stress and lipid peroxidation in patients with Type 2 DM and might be beneficial in preventing cardiovascular complications. …” …More

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #15

Yep. There are a lot of recent studies linking cancer to damage to the mitochondria from reactive oxygen species. It’s why the Warbug effect is so important for cancer cells; they are reliant on glucose because their mitochondria are too damaged to metabolise fatty acids or ketones.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #16

The main issue is really the proportion of polyunsaturated fats to monounsaturated and saturated fats. The more of the latter two, the better. Olive oil is comparatively low in polyunsaturates and is definitely a better choice than any of the industrial seed oils on the market—but personally, I prefer to use fats that are mostly monounsaturated and saturated, such as butter, bacon grease, lard, and tallow.

(BuckRimfire) #17

Same problem with sardines. I usually stick with those packed in mustard now. Sometimes tomato if they didn’t add TOO much sugar.

(Bob M) #18

Me too, though even bacon grease and lard I wonder about, as pigs are what they eat. Coconut oil is good too.

I still like duck and goose fat, though these too might be suspect for PUFAs. Like chickens, it depends what they eat.

I still find a place for olive oil, as it does add a unique flavor. And I have fond memories of the salads my dad made, so I have salads periodically.

This is a great Italian dressing:

I usually add an anchovy or two before mixing with a stick blender. The stick blender mixes it better, to me. I up the red wine vinegar to 6 Tbsps, too, as I like a bit more “bite”. And I use store-bought Italian seasoning, although theirs looks good too.

(Kirk Wolak) #19

Yeah,
Dr. Phinney and his Anti-Fasting is really sad. He “hates” Dr. Fung…
But he is misleading… He quotes studies that used 30 + Day Fasts. Yep metabolism drops.
But Dr. Fung says 5-7 days, and their site would NOT let you talk about fasts longer than 10 days!

So it was apples and oranges…
I am fasting tomorrow! I was a client of IDM/Fung…

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #20

As I like to point out, Dr. Phinney and Dr. Fung both disapprove of fasting for longer than three or four days without the supervision of a physician. They both say that fasts shorter than that are just fine. So many people talk and write about how they are diametrically opposed on the subject of fasting, but I just don’t see it.