Nutrient timing? I'm skeptical


(charlie3) #1

I bring this up because I doubt this is an issue except for people in the suppliment business with products to sell and nutrician research labs with grants to fund. People from these fields want fitness consumers to believe they should dose themselves with protein multiple times a day to maximize protein synthesis. I’m skeptical because of an issue they never address which seems to have an answer they never bring up.

The best information I can find at this point is that protein and fats from whole foods are complicated molecules that take a long time to fully digest, as in several days, before they pass entirely into the blood stream. That might mean there is a constant trickle of amino and fatty acids going into the blood stream regardless of timing and the nutrients we rely on today (except perhaps carbs) come from what was consumed yesterday or even the day before. All this matters to me because I’m doing cardio and strength work and skipping breakfast and skipping 3 meals in a row about once a week…

I suspect the research that determined the transit times for various nutrients was done decades ago and isn’t repeated because there is no need. Is there anyone here who knows more about it?


(Ethan) #2

It’s all about insulin. Eating constantly keeps insulin levels elevated. Allowing longer periods between meals lets insulin drop and energy to flow from stored sources (glycogen and fat stores). Also, with autophagy, there should be a flow of amino acids back into the body.


(charlie3) #3

Yes, insulin timing then. That is my original motive for trying keto. Which raises another question. Can the body be tricked into flooding the blood stream with insulin when no glucose or protein is actually flowing from the digestion system? How does insulin timing work?

Last Saturday I was in the process of skipping a day of eating. At one point I was making my first batch of home made oil and vinegar salad dressing. So I wanted to taste test and did that by dipping some celery in the nix a couple of times. That was a trivial number of calories and no carbs for practical purposes, but it was sufficient to trick my brain and stop the hunger pangs for several hours. When that happened was the blood stream flooded with insulin in preparation for what never came? Why does that seem unlikely. I wonder how the body decides how much insulin to release and when and whether there is any harm if there are no nutrients to direct after all.


(Chris W) #4

I think the fitness / supplement world places a lot of emphasis on maintaining an anabolic state. Insulin is an important part of being in an anabolic state. They don’t view insulin in the same negative way that most ketonians trying to reverse diabesity do.
I do believe that animal based foods are broken down much more quickly than you imply and the nutrients are also absorbed quickly as the food passes through the small intestine. Once food gets to the large intestine, the body is primarily extracting liquid from the waste, not absorbing nutrients. The foods that are not fully digested and absorbed by the time the leave the small intestine are likely feeding the gut biome more than the human. This may still have many benefits, but I think it is still poorly understood and the mainstream beliefs related to benefits may be overstated.
I’ve been told that the 12 hour windows of fasting recommended prior to bloodwork is because it takes 10 hours for any dietary fat consumed to be fully processed by the body and cleared from the bloodstream.


(charlie3) #5

I’ve heard more than one commentator say fat doesn’t cause an insulin response where as carbs cause the most response and protein much less. Still, is protein fully digested and cleared from the blood stream in 12 hours? I’ve also read that there’s a maximum rate that the digestive system releases amino acids into the blood stream.

The nutrient timing people like to say that eating protein causes a spike in protein synthesis. But that begs the question which is, at the end of the day, was there any more total protein synthsis in skeletal muscles because of these upticks or did it all work out the same in the end. I’ve read that only a small percentage of the protein we eat ends up in muscle tissue because protein synthesis is going on continuously in every part of the body so what we eat is directed to everything else too and perhaps preferentially for all we know. Just because we might focus on muscle tissue doesn’t mean the body agrees.


(Chris W) #6

I was careful not to say anything about protein clearing the system within a given timeframe because it’s not something I’ve specifically sought out, or stumbled across in my digging. It is possibly very different from dietary fat.

I think you are on point when you say that muscle synthesis is a relatively small part of the bodies overall protein synthesis activity.

One thing that I’m unsure of is whether the protein timing advocates think a spike in the synthesis in muscle is enabled through an abundance of protein substrate availability, or if the effect they are looking for is a combination of adequate substrate availability in conjunction with a sustained elevated insulin, triggered in response to the protein intake, enabling a longer anabolic window.


(Melissa Marie) #7

"Now, back to the cephalic phase insulin response:

"Think about the typical dieter who denies herself nourishing or satisfying food, who might be quite low in calories, and is simply hungry. Chances are, she just starts to fantasize about food.

Has ever happened to you – where you start to imagine all the forbidden foods that you want to eat? Well, for the person who’s constantly fantasizing about pasta or cookies or cake or ice cream or any sugary or carbohydrate food – they’ll be in a continuous cephalic phase insulin response, and thus producing insulin, even though there are no carbohydrates or sugar for that insulin to act upon.

This means that insulin levels will be artificially high and the insulin will be sitting around with nothing to do. By default, this chemical will then perform its secondary function, which is to store fat and inhibit muscle growth. Add to this the stress of dieting and denying oneself food and satisfaction, and our dieter will also produce more cortisol – yet another fat-storage hormone.

So by constantly fantasizing about carbohydrate-rich foods and leading a stressful life, our dieter will have the exact pieces in place for chronically elevated insulin and cortisol – the precursors for “non-caloric” weight gain."

http://psychologyofeating.com/can-thoughts-be-fattening-video-with-emily-rosen/

"Can just the sight of food raise insulin?

We’ve all heard of studies that show that simply tasting something sweet without ingesting it can raise insulin, but can simply seeing certain foods trigger the same process?

Sylvie

Yes. this is called the cephalic response. The sight or smell of food starts you salivating and insulin starts rising immediately even if you do not eat.

Dr. Jason Fung"

"Some Japanese researchers believe that our thoughts about food can cause actual physical changes that may lead to weight gain.

Their study published in the journal Cell Metabolism, concluded that the anticipation of a sweet treat in mice and rats triggers their muscles to start taking up glucose from the blood and getting ready for action. If that muscle does not in fact get to work, the glucose will be stored as fat.

How does it happen? The researchers identified the culprit as orexin (probably etymologically related to “Oreo”), a protein contained in neurons in the brain’s hypothalamus. Orexin has also been identified as a neurotransmitter involved with pleasure seeking and drug and alcohol addiction.

The idea that our thoughts might trigger a response in our digestive and metabolic systems is not a new one. A 1985 study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition noted that it is "well documented that the sight, smell, and taste of food can profoundly affect an organism’s physiology."

In particular, it’s well known that our mind has the ability to trigger insulin production. It’s called the “cephalic phase insulin response.” And insulin is the hormone that directs our body to store fat."


(charlie3) #8

Thanks for the tip. One of the things I’ve gotten right with keto is I don’t snack. Except for that piece of celery, I have a perfect record. Are you saing that feeling hunger triggers insulin? That would be problematic since I have not figured out a way to force hunger out of my mind. I don’t think I fantasize about food. Never the less insulin can’t dictate what happens to fat any more because I’ve proved I can keep to 20ish carbs, skip meals, fast for 36 hours so far and restrict calories if all else fails, Those things were impossible before keto. I’ve still got a lot to learn after just 2 months but I can do a lot already.


(gayle) #9

It is well documented in the Radiology field that thinking about food increases GI Motility. When we do a swallow study, or an Upper GI for physiological motility, If the patient drinks the barium/ or other contrast, and it just sits there, does not trickle down the gut, no duodenal activity, our next step is to have the patient think about eating their favorite food, to visualized and even if they want to move their mouth and swallow. Can you guess what happens?
The stomach starts to move, the lower stomach pushes food through the bulb into the small intestine. When this does not work we then give the patient glucogon because of its affect on the central nervous system. YES Glucogon.
Please know that there are two different motilities when eating. the physical MOTILITY of food through your stomach, small intestine, large intestine/colon and out the body. This motility is different than the absorption of nutrients into the blood stream. That is affected by the function of gut lining, liver, kidneys and a host of other metabolic functions.


(gayle) #10

Lets think about this again. If the large intestine is " Primarily extracting liquid waste, not absorbing nutrients," Just what do you think is in the liquid? Absorption is absorption throughout the gut, and starts in the mouth.( on a side note: gastric bypass patients are instructed to chew-chew-chew their food, hundreds of times. The purpose to aid in digestion and absorption. Both physical breakdown and the addition of saliva…) but the transfer from the gut to actual metabolism takes place in every organ. This is why clean eating is promoted. intra abdominal fat( your belly) peritoneal fat- that which surrounds your organs, bowels and large vessles in the abdomen, the fat that surrounds the heart( did you know a 400 pound man can have an enlarged heart that is actually a smaller than normal &weak heart/muscle surrounded by inches and inches of fat!), and fat in the liver all affect how well nutrients are processed. And THIS is how we all differ. This is the reason exercize of some type is a must! If the fatty liver is not healed, if the fat around your heart is not going away it is like washing your kitchen counter top with a sponge laden with grease!.. Go a head, rinse with water, squeeze it out, and wipe, use more water, hotter water, rinse and repeat. You will still have a slick-greasy mess. Fatty liver, lack of exercize, artificial additives are the biggest hinderance to any persons true nutritional absorption. But then that is just my option. It is good to share your experience here, so we can all learn.


(Melissa Marie) #11

Yes and I am not sure about timing but my original post speaks of this and there is plenty of research showing it occurs.

What I suspect and am reading is that it is more to do with what we do when we feel hunger and how we are managing it as to whether or not we have an insulin response. If you are not actively thinking about food and just experiencing hunger in the physical sense and not the mental active imagination of resolving it, it shouldn’t occur.

I wouldn’t go that far. How you deal with what insulin does do may be a better way to view this. Insulin is still going to show up to work and keep trying to do it’s job regardless of how you do yours, though you can do your best to manage it by doing what you are already doing.


(charlie3) #12

What’s below is what got my attention. There seem to be widely varying opinions about digestion time even though the careful science probably settled the issues long ago. I’m trying to take full advantage of the benefits of cardio, lifting and keto all at the same time. That’s not turning out to be so simple. For one thing, if I want to add some muscle mass I probably need to ease up on restricting calories and eat more than I consume. I hate the idea of giving up the hard won fat reduction. What I’ll try now is to ‘over eat’ for six days then fast for one day. May be I can keep most of any muscle gains from the week of eating more and burn a higher percent of fat than lean tissue on the fast day. So there is week to week nutrician timing.

“Digestion times vary by sex and by individual. According to the Mayo Clinic, food in general takes anywhere from 24-72 hours to be digested, with 53 hours the average amount of time[1]. It doesn’t matter whether it’s animal protein or vegetables. Only a few substances – such as glucose – have quicker digestion times. Glucose doesn’t even need to hit the intestines before it’s absorbed by the body.”
https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it-take-to-digest-meat


(gayle) #13

I went to our fitness club and they have a scale that measures your body fat percent and lean muscle mass. This was last summer. I had started no dairy, bread, pasta, rice and potatoes.( I didn’t know about KETO then). As I lost weight, it was at about 15 pounds lost that they noticed I had started to loose muscle too. My trainer said to increase the grams of protein. The next time we measured, sure enough, I continued to loose fat and not muscle.
I use the myFitnessPal app. I started at 2000 calories a day. then went to 1800 and when I went to KETO I kept it between 16-1500 cal with 5%carbs 25%protein 70% fat. at the higher calories it was 30% protein, and less fat. I have lost 60 pounds now I keep my 1200 calories at 5,25,70. Check the caclulators that tell you how many grams of protein for pounds per muscle. then calculate that. (I broke my ankle, had hardware put in and sat around. lost lots of muscle strength from inactivity. so that’s where Im at now)
maybe search KETO Trainer blogs and see how to increase mass with restricted diet. Good Luck building on the progress you’ve made so far. Every long journey requires endurance, we can strengthen our mind muscle as well. Id stick to the diet, keep working out, but limit the cardio. for a few weeks. or try alternating Cardio for a week, lifting 3x a week the next week, then a week of cardio ( If you cant do without it)and see if shifting your burn helps.


(Omar) #14

if I eat 3 meals a day, there can be 9 meals in my guts at any time.

amazing


(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #15

I dunno. There is a circadian clock in every cell of your body, as well as a few master clocks that govern processes.

Dawn effect in T2DM is one that many folks here are familiar with. There is a great deal of research on circadian rhythms by real scientists.

There is much about skin and the timing of food and sun exposure that this scientist found. More research to be done, but the liver has a circadian cycle, so much we don’t know.