Not losing anything

carnivore
#21

That is the only red meat item I can massively overeat… I had other things too, though, when I had 1000g pork shoulder on TMAD carnivore, twice. I don’t even like pork shoulder much, it is just triggering for some reason. Other red meats work better. If I overeat, the meat part is still okay, I just eat too many eggs or too much dairy, usually both. So I try to focus on meat and whenever I have pork shoulder, I make sure it’s not my main meat.
But I am unable to eat only meat, that very quickly results in starving while having a serious meat aversion so eating meat is impossible. WHY I have this idiotic thing I don’t know, one is supposed to be able to eat meat (or any other proper food) when hungry but I am not like that. Once I even forced it and I gagged and had to stop.
My need for fuel, hunger and appetite aren’t very well synchronized :frowning: But it’s still better on a mostly red meat diet than otherwise (the problem arises when I get too easy satiation and get hungry too often). I have great days there. And hungry days. And meat boredom days but those got very rare. And 5MAD days (eating 2-3 meals always was enough on every woe but carnivore is special).
I had enough so I go for no food until 4pm now (it suits me anyway, that’s actually a requirement for it). That should solve most of my remaining dietary problems.

We just need energy and protein. It means enough fat too, automatically. We can’t eat too little fat as we need the energy and we can’t get that from protein. I don’t think there is much more about it but it may be for some who need more fat and less protein. I need high protein (in grams and percentage alike) and little energy (hence the high protein percentage) so of course my fat percentage is lower.
I don’t know what people do when they need a higher fat percentage for therapeutic reasons or something but they need high protein and not much energy… Maybe they still eat much and use up it all and probably can’t lose fat until they heal somewhat? Or they are more magical than I am and still can lose fat… Whatever, I am glad I don’t strictly need very high fat, merely would love eating like that. I need high protein though and it’s non-negotiable - but I will try to lower it on OMAD if I ever manage to stick to it for more than 1-2 days without a ton of carbs. (I probably could do it on keto too if I really put my mind on it).

Our protein need is firmly in grams, NOT in percentage though. Or you say I need 3 times more protein when I eat a lot versus when I eat little? Nope, I need about the same. The grams are the important things here. Even for protein toxicity, it’s grams (compared to LBM or something but LBM should have the most to do with it. activity too, to some extent).

  1. Satiation has no effect on the tastiness of my food though.
  2. Fat doesn’t satiate me well. Of course I need it as I can’t and shouldn’t eat a ton of protein (and I don’t like lean protein. if protein is more than fat in grams, things get tricky as I prefer fattier than that - or did, my training starts to pay off) but beyond that… Nothing. After I had decent nutrition, I can add 100-200g fat and my satiation typically stays the same. I don’t even get full (that’s good as I dislike being full but maybe that would help me to stop). That’s why I need to minimize fat, I just don’t have a stop sign with it or I suppose I have but that’s over twice of my energy need. I need my protein and as little fat as comfortably possible (it’s a win if it’s below my protein, I really can’t eat lean).

It would be a bad idea for me sometimes but I can’t do it anyway :frowning: I just can’t. Try and fail, regularly. Oh well, it’s not really a problem for me. And I do have weeks without any hunger but a very strong urge to refuel. I MUST eat then. So it’s not so simple for everyone. But as long as we figure out ourselves and can handle our signs well, it’s okay.

Lucky. I am a hedonist, food is one of my major joys and I have days when I have huge appetite when I don’t need food (so it tastes great) after I ate all day joyless food when very hungry. Not my typical behaviour, thankfully but happens too often.

I measure and try to put 450-600g meat in front of me and eat only that much fresh meat on a day. It’s not so bad, some people never are hungry, easily undereat, some manage to get protein toxicity and need to eat purely according to plan. I am usually fine but to be safe, it’s better to know when I had enough protein and fat. As it’s ridiculously easy to overeat both, I blame my overeating past. My actual diet helps a lot - but I still have those tendencies, some days are safe, others not and the average keeps me fat.

@Vnfo: Good luck to find the balance, not too much fat but enough to feel okay! And exercise has so many benefits, I encourage you to do some! I can’t force myself either, maybe I push myself here and there but basically just do what I like to do, walking, little cycling, lifting because I like muscles… A little is better than nothing!

Yes! Often, at least, if I stop, I need to restart as it’s so bad without. The more sedentary I get, the less energy I have as well, it’s horrible as I have little to begin with. Mood, energy, many other things, exercise is super useful, I consider it vital for health. It is clearly that for mine, physical and mental, emotional alike.

And if one has much fat, there is the extra muscle to move the bigger body. It would be a shame to lose that along with the fat…

We have threads here regarding exercise, strength training, lazy me find them motivating sometimes do I already am motivated as I clearly see and feel the benefits!

(Bob M) #22

Repeat after me: exercise does not cause weight loss; exercise does not cause weight loss; exercise…

I lost the most fat while decreasing my exercise and solely eating near zero carbs.

Over time, I’ve increased my exercise again, to 5 days/week. But exercising makes me hungrier (weird, huh?), so I eat more on the days I exercise.

While there are plenty of good reasons to exercise, weight loss isn’t one of them.

(B Creighton) #23

Hi William and welcome.
Exercise, while good for you, won’t really help you lose much weight. Usually, you are going to burn only 300-400 calories doing exercise. What I do in the winter is try to encourage more brown fat. I keep the house in the sixties - which helps with the heating bill too. This encourages some fat cells into mitochondrial biogenesis - in other words their mitochondria multiply. When they multiply enough that the cells appear brown instead of white, it is called brown fat. Adults tend to get brown fat around the shoulders and neck area. Brown fat is a natural adaptation we have since being babies, and help keep us warm. It can burn a lot of calories… as a matter of fact just a simple walk out in the cold air without a jacket or sweater would burn lots of calories - primarily all fat calories. Like others here I would suggest ixnay on the extra fat consumption.

(Edith) #24

How is your sodium intake? Your feeling of unsatisfied hunger could be because you are not getting enough salt. Carnivore is similar to keto in that you will not be holding on to sodium and therefore will to need to consciously intake larger amounts of salt. Especially when adapting you may need to take in an additional 2 teaspoons (I think that’s approximately 10 grams) of salt per day.

#25

Of course not. You are a good example as exercise make you eat more. It tends to make me eat less (or no change), at least light/little exercise. But if I exercise a lot, I can bet I will finally lose fat as no way I will eat back all those calories.
Even so, I don’t think exercise helps much with my potential fat-loss and I lost fat while being sedentary myself (I always had at least walks but just that time, nope). But it may help me out in the future and it is mandatory for my SO’s fat-loss, he clearly see it every time. Just exercise never helps but eating the same and exercise vs not exercise, that makes the difference between fat-loss and maintenance or maintenance and fat gain. And he wants the same amount of food, no matter his activity level (it probably doesn’t work with unusually much activity but 12km cycling/running and 8 hour light physical work every day? no change in eating when he stops for 2-3 weeks. he gained fat so rapidly he never stopped again :smiley: as losing fat is quick but hard for him). So exercise very much helps to keep his figure. Eating is still the key but he is doomed without exercise.

Many people say exercise helped them and it makes sense. Just like it’s understandable it doesn’t help others either because they get hungrier or because they manage to use up not much more energy (it can’t work with much exercise though). Or both. I have read on this very forum that exercise even can be counterproductive in some cases.

And there is the special case, gaining muscle. Sometimes I wonder if that is my only chance at eventual fat-loss… I don’t think so anymore, carnivore and training to eat leaner gave me some good days, I just need to stick to it for longer… :wink: But more muscle still would be nice.

I definitely exercise for various reasons and fat-loss is only a minor potential one of those… Exercise is good, I consider it vital, maybe it will help with fat-loss, maybe not, it doesn’t change my decision to try to do more of it.

Only? It’s not little at all, I doubt most people have that much exercise… Not like one can possibly know how much energy they burn with exercise…
300 kcal deficit really could help me out, it’s about the highest I ever had longer term, I lost fat very nicely though many people consider it slow. I consider my usual zero per year slow…
Sixties in winter? We have that (higher sixties but sixties). And partially cold showers. But we dress warmly, of course, being cold is horrible. I undress when I go out to walk except in cold temperature. It doesn’t seem to help but maybe I just eat too much… But it can’t be very significant. It’s probably individual too but 1 hour walk hardly burns many calories.

(Geoffrey) #26

I am referring to the 70/30 percentages of fat to proteins ratio. That doesn’t mean we are measuring in ounces or grams a 70/30 ratio per weight. In other words, I not saying that in one hundred grams of meat that 70% of it should be fat and only 30% should be protein. Because fat weighs more that protein if you are eating a piece of very fatty meat you will more than likely be fulfilling that 70/30 percentage but if the meat is very lean then you may need to add fat to it to help bring that percentage ratio up to meet the same requirements. And of course the 79/30 percentage ratio of fat to protein is just a baseline that many suggest we should start at and then adjust as personal requirements need.

I have found that the fat in higher omega 6 fatty animals such as pork and chicken don’t satiate me either. Ruminants such as lamb and beef do a really good job of satiating. I’m not sure but I think it may have to do with the better omega 3 to 6 profile.

(Megan) #27

Definitely my experience. Chicken provides little satiation, pork a medium amount, beef much, much more. Pretty much all beef in New Zealand is grass fed, which I think has more omega 3?

#28

Yes, diet by far exceeds exercise in terms of fat loss. However, exercise is also a good boost to fat loss as it kickstarts dozens of passive small factors that, together, can easily make up 20-30% of what you can achieve with just diet.

A quick example of many would be as your metabolism ramps up, you burn more calories, which leads to hunger and eating more. Now you are able to have larger deficit in calories without triggering metabolic adaptation.

(William) #29

I stopped adding salt two days ago because I noticed that I would eat more when adding salt, I feel a little less bloated now and my energy is the same, not great, not bad. For example I can easily overdo tallow or butter if it’s salted, without salt I’m unable to eat more than seemingly needed. I’ll add it back if I crave it or feel off.
Out of curiosity I used keto urine strips yesterday and I’m still peeing some ketones.

(William) #30

I used to love walking and go out for a walk every morning but the weather here in Belgium has been depressing, we get like 60 days of sunshine per year and it rains 9 to 10 months out of twelve.
My house is always cold because I prefer it this way and can’t afford to heat more anyway, I’d rather put some clothes on than overheat. One thing I’ve been trying for a while are cold showers but my body just says nope.

(William) #31

I don’t think I will be able to force it anyway, I tried several times in my life for weeks and never had that moment that some people talk about where you get pleasure out of exercising or feel good afterwards, I hate it and I feel stupid while doing it. Cycling or walking is fine though.
I guess my body will tell me in time if it wants to move more, like when I have some rushes and find myself buzzing around the house for no apparent reason.

#32

But our protein need IS in grams. Not in percentage. You don’t need tiny protein if you eat little and a ton when you eat many calories. If I would get super active, I would need much more fat and the same amount of protein (considering I already need it high, others may need a bit more protein but mostly fat for the extra calories).

Pork satiates me well enough except pork shoulder for some reason… It’s at least a bit individual, reading about other people’s experiences… It’s possible omega 3 and 6 has something to do with it too, I don’t know…
I never met anyone who said ruminant meat doesn’t satiate them :wink: I think it is somewhat more effective for me than pork but I have little experience and as I have so many other items and hungrier days, it’s hard to tell anyway.
Fish is probably not very satiating either (not often had just fish but it feels so to me…), eggs are worse than pork but still not bad (my best satiating item on my old vegetarian keto) and dairy is the total worst satiation wise (along with added fats).

#33

That can be too much for me too when it’s not summer, I do it partially otherwise: my limbs can handle the cold (I work my way up from my hands and feet, it’s surprisingly easy for me as long as the water isn’t too cold. so not freezing but IDK, 10-20 Celsius. 20 is pretty nice already, I can start lower) and I finish my trunk and head with lukewarm. Hopefully it is good for something… If nothing else, sparing money :smiley: But it probably has other benefits.
People usually do it in the other direction, first warm then cold but I do it my own way for reasons.
And I started the whole things in a hot summer when it was refreshing to have a cold shower (“summer cold”, 19C, not bad at all. our water comes from a well farther away so it is very cold in winter) so when autumn came, I already was used to normally cold showers. As the weather got colder (and our water too), I had to add warmth but I never had a properly warm shower again and I don’t think I ever will. I am a hedonist so I get the shower I enjoy, maybe a little push towards the cold but no force, no suffering and it was surprising how much my preferences changed without real effort!

That is MUCH better than nothing! I mostly just do that too (and some lifting). Nice places nearby help me out a lot but I always felt the need to walk, no matter where I lived (I went farther for some fresh air and prettier scenery on the weekends when it was needed).

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #34

You have a point, but just remember that some people have a greater need for protein, so their percentage of fat will necessarily be lower.

(Geoffrey) #35

I understand what you are saying but I don’t think I’m able to explain what I’m trying to say in a way that it will make sense to you. That’s my failure.

(Geoffrey) #36

Of course. Because we are all different we all have different needs. I just believe we start at a baseline and then adjust from there until our bodies needs are met.

#37

It’s odd, I have the intellect to understand things if it’s not something too deep like Chemistry :smiley: (Other things may keep me from it, of course, humans are complex, with flaws.) I am horrible at Chemistry, always was (but still able to understand simpler things eventually if I put in the effort. usually I lose patience after the 20th unknown term in a few sentences. it’s for articles, thankfully comments on this forum are way more understandable, even studies aren’t that densely packed with scientific terms but they are often not very useful for my knowledge seeking).
And I don’t think you would be so bad at explaining either… Oh well.

Yeah, that’s fine and 70/30 (if one manages 0% carbs… it’s 3% for me lately but my energy need is small and I like my little dairy and eggs) isn’t a bad baseline. If one needs any. Some people just eat what they like, desire or consider right. I naturally had 65-70% fat and it was impossible for me to change for several years.
Hmmm… Most people probably need more energy or less protein though.
But in the beginning it seemed you think we need the percentages, not grams and energy where the latter needs result in percentages often in the ballpark of 70/30. I wished to express (I am aware I am not so good at it, one reason I use too many words to get it across at some point) that not the percentages themselves are important (except for therapeutical keto/carnivore or for personal reasons) but our needs should be met, whatever percentages we get in the end. I need high protein and low calorie so obviously my fat percentage must be smaller, someone with a higher protein need but way higher energy need gets a way higher fat percentage if they can avoid overeating protein… If they just eat more of the same food, the percentage can’t change but the protein gets dangerously high at some point and they need to learn to eat fattier. And if someone eats super little (compared to me, at least), they need a quite high protein percentage just to get the necessary grams of protein at least (and probably essential nutrients mostly come from protein sources. lots of fat only gives us, well, fat, it’s essential too but not in big amounts).

I think I am done here. I said what I could. Main thing we get our needs :slight_smile: And it’s good if we can enjoy the process. Or just not actively dislike it, sometimes one needs to accept that.