Not even remotely hungry on feast day post fast


(Trish) #1

So I fasted from Monday evening til Friday lunch time. It went well. Today I had a western omelet and bacon and am intending a fat head pizza and salad and keto dessert a la chocolate covered Katie. It’s my feast day after four days of fasting. The problem is that I’m not even remotely hungry. In fact , I just got home from work and I’m actually still quote full from eating 5 hours ago. The thought of eating doesn’t appeal to me in that my belly physically feels full and mentally also. How am I supposed to feast to ahow my body that the famine has passed feeling this way?


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #2

I think you’ve answered your own question. Just in case… when you’re not hungry don’t eat.


(Trish) #3

I understand that of course honestly I do but I don’t want my body to feel like I’m not giving it enough and bugger up my metabolism. Or maybe it just got really efficient at utilizing it’s own fat stores? Clearly I want to lose weight but I want to be healthy above all else.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #4

Unless your hunger and satiety signals (grehlin and leptin) are seriously messed up, your metabolism won’t slow down without warning. You get fuel from what you eat and what you pack. As long as that combination supplies all the fuel you need you’re OK. Hunger is the signal you need to eat fuel. People on calorie restricted diets run into trouble because they ignore their hunger. They’re told to move more and eat less and expect to be hungry all the time. Works for a while, but not very long. Eventually, the metabolism ‘says: OK, we’re not getting enough fuel in here, so we’ll cut back on how much we’re using’.


(Trish) #5

I do understand all that. It’s just that even when when having a regular eating day I often don’t eat a lot since I’m frequently just not that hungry. I guess I just wanted to be sure that I’m not screwing anything up.


(Robert C) #6

For the situation you are describing, I would follow the advice “when you fast, fast - when you feast, feast”.

It does not seem like a good idea to eat only a little due to the lack of hunger you get with fasting when you are supposed to be feasting - especially if you are planning on fasting again soon. Restricting (intentionally or not) between frequent fasts won’t let you rebuild as you should (temporary muscle loss might become permanent or maybe hair loss would begin).

You may just have to eat even if you do not happen to feel hungry (or maybe move your next fast out).


(Trish) #7

See that’s EXACTLY what I was worried about. I guess I just didn’t express myself very well. My plan was/is to feast today and tomorrow and then do a shorter two day fast Sunday Monday based on my work schedules and then feast again post fast. I am a cancer survivor and I do like rhe whole autophagy concept associated with the fasting process.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #8

So you favour forced feeding? Even though her metabolism seems to be saying “we don’t need any exogenous fuel input just now”? I don’t fast much, but I understand the feeling of not wanting to eat after a multi-day fast. But that passes, so why should she force the feast when she really doesn’t want it? Why not wait a couple days when she will enjoy it all the more? It’s not going to affect her RMR in the slightest as long as total fuel remains adequate to her needs.

Is there something sacred about feast? I doubt it. It just sounds like another one of those bogus rewards some seem to need to justify eating (or in this case not eating) healthily. But, then, as said I don’t fast all that much so what do I know? :kissing:


(Full Metal KETO AF) #9

What does feast mean? I don’t think it implies overeating or gorging your belly more full than usual. However a salad probably would not come before a protein and fat dense meal, but I would think on day five your stomach may have tightened up, shrunk a bit and you might feel full on less. Did you consider breaking with some broth or anything like that first before the heavy meal? I think the point of the “feast” is to eat whatever you want all day. Get full, want a mini meal at an odd time, no problem. Eat whenever and whatever keto food you want after fasting four or five days. I have heard that eating more than you usually do isn’t necessary but if you want 4000 kcals then go for it. If you want it, since you aren’t hungry now eat what you want later today and tomorrow before fasting again, don’t have restrictions other than keeping close on the carbs. I think an extra few carbs wouldn’t matter either if it’s vegetables or something like you normally eat. :cowboy_hat_face:


(Robert C) #10

My point was that between fasts you don’t want to slow metabolism with a low level of food.
At the end of a fast it is tempting to try to retain the entire scale loss up to that point and basically fall back to a calorie restricted diet.
It is tempting psychologically because you do not want any of your losses erased.
It is possible physically because hunger went away around day 2 or 3.

So, unlike during Keto, where (after a few months) satiety signals are well known - at the end of a fast, they are not.

For me, I have an idea when I’ll break my fast and - even if not physically hungry - about the planned time, I’m really ready to eat. But for someone who is not hungry, they still might want to carry through with their eating plan (along with throwing in a good workout to take advantage of the raised HGH levels).

In my opinion, lengthening the fast is probably better than ending it but eating too little.


(Robert C) #11

You might try some exercise - this will take advantage of the extra growth hormone floating around your system - it also might help make you hungry.


(Robert C) #12

Think of the time right after fasting as a time to halt autophagy and build muscle.
I do not have cancer but I am pretty sure that adding muscle is important for cancer outcomes.


(Trish) #13

I hadn’t thought of that re exercise.


(Trish) #14

I appreciate this dialogue and exchange of ideas. I made the pizza for my family and the smells gave me an appetite so I did end up having some. My Oma (grsndma) always used to say “the appetite comes with the eating”. It rolls off the tongue a bit better in German lol. Anyway I ended up with 1358 calories for the day of which 80 were protein, 15 were carbs and 107 were fat. With working today my energy expenditure calculates out to about 3000.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #15

Sorry this is a bit long-winded. Hopefully you’ll find it worthwhile.

Here’s my understanding. As I mentioned, if both grehlin and leptin work as designed, when you do not experience hunger your metabolism is telling you, whatever the precise mix of exogenous and endogenous energy input, you’re getting sufficient total energy to meet your requirements. It is only when the total input falls below current energy requirements that the metabolism lowers the energy requirement - and this only if the deficit is maintained ‘chronically’. This occurs commonly during so-called ‘calorie restricted’ weight loss diets, which is why it gets harder to lose weight over time. This can also occur on a keto diet, as well. The last few pounds are the most difficult to lose. Plus, if you’re hungry all the time (due to calorie restriction) it gets harder to stay on any diet. What does ‘chronically’ mean? Probably more than a few weeks and maybe a month.

Keep in mind, there’s a survival mechanism at work here. Humans evolved during the Pleistocene when during the winter our ancestors might very likely have to go for weeks without food. It would have been survival enhancing to decrease the metabolic rate to compensate for the lack of exogenous input and reduce the amount of endogenous burn and potential muscle wasting. BUT, if it went on too soon or too fast, our ancestors were at risk of not having sufficient energy to go after the next mammoth that happened to pass by.

Your metabolism can only burn a certain amount of body fat per day. This varies individually and with how much fat mass is there to begin with. But it’s generally only a few hundred or so calories for people eating SAD. And I think a few hundred more when you’re keto, mainly because eating fat and protein and eliminating carbs makes your metabolism ‘run hotter’. Which is why keto usually results in faster fat/weight loss than calorie restricted diets. Anyway, the main point here is that again, if grehlin and leptin are functioning as designed, when total energy input falls below current energy requirements, you will feel hungry. Only if you ignore the hunger signal ‘chronically’ does your metabolism reduce overall energy requirements.

Example. When I started keto my main motivation was not fat loss. None the less, due to ignorance for close to 3 months I ate a 1000 calorie per day deficit. I also lost 25 pounds, or the equivalent of nearly 90,000 calories. So the total energy use (2500 calories per day) came from the combination of what I ate plus body fat. And I never felt hungry during those 3 months.

I lost another 10 pounds during the next couple of months as I gradually increased my exogenous caloric input. I stopped losing weight at 2500 calories per day. I interpret that to mean, I was eating enough to supply all my energy requirements with little or no endogenous fat burn. I maintained my weight (150+/- 1 or 2 pounds) at 2500 calories for the next year.

A year later I got a full time job at Walmart which increased my level of activity significantly and hence my overall energy requirements. I started to lose weight. My weight fell to 145 before I stopped it by increasing my caloric input to 2700 calories. It has been stable for more than a year.

All this to explain why I don’t think delaying your so-called ‘post-fast feast’ a couple of days is going to affect your overall metabolic rate. I think what will affect it, is multi-day fasting too frequently - ie ‘chronically’ reducing exogenous input below the point where endogenous input makes up the difference. I would be careful about that and pay strict attention to timing as prescribed by Fung. He seems to be the most knowledgeable person out there on the efficacy of periodic fasting long term.

I know a lot of people on this forum do EF fasts to assist their weight loss. So it must work. But I think you have to be careful to avoid metabolic slowdown and lean mass wasting.


(Trish) #16

Everything you guys have said makes sense and most of it is stuff i know too; I just wish it were black and white, binary, etc. I’ve read a lot of stuff from Dr. Fung and have signed up for the 12 week free trial on his IDM site. Maybe I’ll learn a few more things.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #17

Here is another bit that might help: I recently read a study that tracked the subjects’ food intake and energy expenditure, and they found that, while daily intake and expenditure were not always close, they matched extremely well over about a week’s time.

I’m not familiar with the details of your story, but here are some ideas to consider: First, your reason for fasting, and what your fasting schedule should be. Perhaps if you allowed more time between fasts, it would give your body a chance to match appetite to need.

Second, you could see what happens if you just listen to your body. If you’re not hungry, so be it, and see if there are any indications that your metabolism is slowing down. Dr. Fung feels that’s not likely from fasting, so watch the pattern of your appetite after each fast. If you always lack much of an appetite after a fast, that’s one thing, but perhaps your lack of appetite after this fast is just a one-off. And Rob’s idea of continuing to fast, as long as you’re not hungry, might be something to experiment with, as well.

It also helps if you’ve been eating ketogenically long enough to be fat-adapted, because that gives you more metabolic flexibility. Your grandmother’s saying has merit. The French have a similar expression, too. Perhaps what you need is an appetizer to end your fast with, and then if you wait a half-hour or so, you might find yourself actually hungry. I know that my satiety kicks in while I’m still only half-full—it’s loss of appetite, not lack of room to cram in anything else, the way it was in the old days—so there’s always room for more. But I don’t like ignoring my body’s signals, because that’s what got me into trouble in the first place!

So I offer these ramblings as food for thought. Take what you like and leave the rest. And let us know how you’re getting on, okay?


(Trish) #18

Thanks @PaulL. :slight_smile: