No one wants to hear it

(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #233

Totally awesome. I would not want the kraft test after being keto for 1+yr.

(mole person) #234

Not just the data either. The protocols matter immensely. We have no way to know if this is a n=5 experiment, or if the three groups even were examined under similar methods. This might be the best science ever or nothing more than some pulling together of a few elements from various studies to generate a hypothesis that still requires testing. He simply hasn’t told us.

(Old Baconian) #235

Bikman’s study was unpublished at the time the lecture was filmed, but it is now out and available on PubMed. Have a go at it, and tell us what you think.

(Katie) #236

I went to Pubmed. PubMed is not a publisher … It is just an index to studies…not the studies themselves

Can you tell me where it was published? NewEngland Journal? Metabolic studies journal?

(Katie) #237

Or…the title of the study?

(Katie) #238

True…but, consider. Just the fact that your actually were published in a journal of the medical practice you are writing about means that many eyes have scrutinized the work before it ever sees print…the. Once in print many will follow the protocol and attempt to repeat your findings. All of that can be pretty intimidating if you are in any way shaky in your research data, protocol, or QA.

Today is a different world. The world of medicine was nowhere near as advanced in Keys day…nor was his work available world wide like today. There are literally hundreds of researchers pouring thru published works…not like decades before the internet when a significant work could languish for years.

(Old Baconian) #239

@Katiekate You are right; like Google Scholar, PubMed is an index, not a periodical. So let’s see. Here are the papers Prof. Bikman cites during the video linked in post 201 of this thread. All references were displayed in his slides. These are mostly PubMed links, which is half your work done for you. I leave it to you to decide which papers you want to consult, and to find the full texts, if available (if you have a hard time deciphering the journal abbreviations, PubMed provides a list):

McGarry et al., “Role of carnitine in hepatic ketogenesis,” Proc. Nat. Acad. Sci., 72:11 (1975), pp. 4385-88

Morton et al., “A systematic review, meta-analysis and meta-regression of the effect of protein supplementation on resistance training-induced gains in muscle mass and strength in healthy adults,” BJSM 52:6 (2018)

There’s no need to thank me; I enjoyed listening to the lecture again.


Thanks @PaulL ! I know watching Bikman videos is a hardship we impose on you from time to time. Thanks for taking one for the team. :rofl:

(mole person) #241

Which is the study that is the crux of it all though? The one where he feeds three human groups. One SAD, one fasting and one 1 g/kg of body weight to show the glucagon to insulin responses. That’s the major finding of his that’s discussed on this forum that is about the reason that we needn’t be concerned with protein amounts on a ketogenic diet.

(Old Baconian) #242

That, padawan, is left as an exercise for the pupil . . . :bacon::bacon:

Seriously, if you search PubMed for “Bikman 2019,” only two studies come up, neither involving people. Apparently the publication of the human arm has been delayed. The McGarry study appears to be rather relevant, however, and might shed some light. Check it out.

(mole person) #243

I think that’s been @Katiekate’s point though.

I will check it out. Thanks.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #244

@KatieMoe You seem to have a high regard for peer review that I no longer share. When a simple google search for “What’s wrong with peer review” turns up 232,000,000 results and a simple NCBI search for “problems peer review” turns up 87684 results, I think there’s ample cause for concern. I think a high degree of skepticism is in order and we need to consider alternatives.


Peer review missed a couple of glaring mistakes in this one too. Can you spot any?

(Ellenor Bjornsdottir (spare me thy resistant starch spiel)) #246

This is why when trying to do the hard sell on hypercarnivore I say “take it day by day. You can go back to the old ways any time after the first three days, or even within the first three days if the sugar withdrawals are too great. I hope that even if you do, you will refrain from using temperate seed oils (like canola, corn oil, grapeseed oil, soybean oil) in your cooking in the future, instead preferring heat-stable fats like tropical seed oils (coconut, palm kernel), butter, ghee, lard and/or tallow.”


Beef tallow is awesome to cook with. A mix of tallow and butter is awesome.

Regarding no one wants to hear it, though… I’m finding slightly less resistance at times. Letting one’s own results speak for itself seems to have been the way to go. This one co-worker who buys candy and pop for their lunch - has recently started buying protein bars and flavored waters. They won’t say a word, but that has been a new development this week. Another one has started weaning her husband off the carbs, and filling his plate with lo-carb alternatives like the faux-tatoes using cauliflower. He’s a tough nut to crack, but she’s trying - and Im doing what I can to help her.

So, I’m not talking alot about it at all…just letting my incredible shrinking arse do the talking for me.

(Old Baconian) #249

Great film title. Or name for an Indie band.

(Parker the crazy crone lady) #250

Oh wow. I read that as “the incredible stinking arse”. Spit take moment there

(Margie) #251



None of my kids will listen to me about Keto, they all keep telling me how dangerous it is, and how I am missing out on so many nutrients and stuff… they will not listen or watch any podcasts

@Momof5 My 5 daughters are the exact same way. They lecture me about being on a fad diet and think I am hurting my heart and health even though I am healthier and more energetic than I’ve been in 10 years. It’s frustrating to say the least.

They are all trying so hard to be healthy and doing all the wrong things and they just keep trying harder without results. I keep staying the course and hoping they will see my results and get curious some day. :pray:t2:

(traci simpson) #253

Eating out is difficult so I do it less and less.