No one wants to hear it


(Susan) #193

Wow, that is super awesome! I am sure that she will really appreciate that and she can ask you questions, etc. Maybe you could tell her about the forum, in case she wants the extra support and community here too.

Well done for you, getting her on board the Keto train though, that is great.


#194

Spending some annual leave with my parents in the Peak District.

They know I’ve been doing Keto and are curious about how it works. Been explaining it as best I can and they are really interested. Mum is 71 and Dad is 75. Both relatively healthy, no diabetes, take no prescription meds. Only thing they have noticed is a slight decline in my Dad’s cognitive health. Not serious enough to consult a Dr but noticeable all the same.

I take MCT oil every morning with my coffee and they’re going to try it. They both could do with losing a bit of weight and I think they might well try the Keto way in a month or two, especially if my results continue.

I’m really happy :blush:.

I’ve been slowly educated my adult sons about Keto, youngest really should lose some weight and eldest might find the mental clarity a benefit. With my sons though I have to lead by example and definitely avoiding being too enthusiastic about them trying it :joy:.


(Katie) #195

Momof5…

Just protein is a mistake. Your body will turn excess protein into carbs.

Go back to 70% fat and 25% protein…the scale will move again.
Add IF to get a stuck scale to move again


(Susan) #196

If you read my thread you would see all the things I have been doing =). I just finished a 43 hour fast, and doing another 72 hour one on Thursday-Sunday, just finished a 48 hour one before the 42 hour one, I do IF 20 hours a day. I cannot have artificial sweeteners, coffee, any coconut products, any dairy at the moment. I have been trying everything for over a month of stall so this is the new thing I am doing. I have been advised to do total carnivore, but am keeping minimal vegetables for now =-). Fats are not for everyone =).

I have lost 38.6 pounds so far, and have over 130 to go, I will be be doing a minimum 72 hour a week fast until this weight is gone, so for over a year or more for sure =).


(Old Baconian) #197

This is an outdated hypothesis. Studies have demonstrated that the amount of gluconeogenesis is regulated by need, not by the supply of amino acids. In the context of a low-carbohydrate diet, the body maintains no more than 4-5 grams of glucose circulating in the bloodstream at any moment.


(Katie) #198

Please name those studies…a link to the publication please.


(Katie) #199

Last thing I read (which I admit was a while back) … excess protein is turned to glugon. yes unused is flushed, but it still spikes insulin.


(Bob M) #200

I have used a CGM to test massive amounts of protein per meal, with no blood sugar rise. For instance, here’s 162 grams of protein IN ONE MEAL:

Now, this was after 36 hours of fasting, but I wore a CGM for over a year and have many, many graphs like this. Eating one pound of ground beef and one can anchovies (about 90 grams of protein) caused absolutely no blood sugar rise whatsoever. You can’t even tell where I ate. I have both after fasting and not after fasting, and it’s always the same - no blood sugar rise.

Also, if eating protein causes morning blood sugar increases, I have thousands of blood sugar readings over almost 4 years, and my morning blood sugar readings are about the same now (under higher protein) as they were when I started taking them (under super high fat). Now, the accuracy of these things is so bad, it’s hard to really say, and my blood sugar is like my scale weight, changes so rapidly day by day, it’s useless many times, but at least I see no trend.

Even if there was a trend, maybe someone who is exercising, much higher in muscle mass and lower in fat mass, and eating keto, SHOULD have higher morning blood sugar?

One reason I don’t address these issues with many people is because they all have no idea what they are doing, instead they see the latest headlines and follow that. Just yesterday, a colleague said he “doesn’t eat meat, only chicken and fish”. When did chicken become “not meat”? (I see the logic, at least for Catholics, for fish, but chicken?) After reading about PUFAs, I try to limit my intake of chicken. I can’t say that, though.

And right now we have a young vegetarian staying with us, who was shocked when I told her I don’t eat bread. Now, I left it at that, and didn’t say that wheat causes me allergies, asthma, and other problems, but that’s because I try to limit what I tell people. It’s too radical. Their belief system couldn’t handle it.

And to be honest, when I was eating super low fat and believed fat killed, I couldn’t have understood it, either. Fat was deadly. Everyone knew that. It was in every magazine and paper I read at the time. (This was wayyyyy before the Internet.) So, it had to be true.


(Bob M) #201

Here’s a good one, though you have to watch it:

“Excess” (I don’t think there is such a thing as “excess”) protein does not “turn to glucagon”. What happens is that there is some insulin response due to proteins. This response depends on the person and the protein. That is, I could eat some type of protein, and so could you, and we could have a similar or completely different response.

As insulin goes up, it does a number of things, resulting in blood sugar going down. To counteract that, glucagon goes up at some point to keep your blood sugar stable. If you have a working insulin/glucagon system, your blood sugar will be stable.

There are people whose systems are messed up. For instance, Jimmy Moore gets hypoglycemia (LOW blood sugar, not high) when he eats too much protein (or fat, he gets worse hypo when he eats too much fat). They think this is a glucagon issue.

If you think that protein turns into a candy bar, I have many tests on myself showing that’s not true.


(Old Baconian) #202

A number of articles show up in PubMed that bear on this issue:


(Old Baconian) #203

The researcher Gabor Erdosi (check out the interviews he has done with Ivor Cummins on www.thefatemperor.com) maintains that metabolic context regulates gluconeogenesis. A certain minimum of protein turnover is always occurring, and the labile pool of amino acids can store only a limited quantity. Excess amino acids get deaminated and repurposed. On a ketogenic diet, if calories equal or are less than energy needs, it makes sense for the body to turn the deaminated compounds into glucose; if caloric intake exceeds energy needs, it makes sense to turn them into fatty acids for storage. High acetyl-CoA drives both gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis, and it is the availabilty of oxaloacetate that is the major branching point.

I take away from this that the main problems with excessive protein are potential fat storage and the risk of ammonia toxicity if the urea cycle is overwhelmed (though I would expect it to be difficult to eat that much protein).


(PJ) #204

On the ref to Jimmy Moore: years ago after I lost 170# very rapidly, me and Jimmy around the same time (and a few others I knew or saw online) were all having reactive hypoglycemic episodes – usually in response to breakfast with eggs and sausage or something (eggs often involved, they seem to be oddly insulinogenic, I’ve seen Dr. Ray Peat refer to that also), after eating a very high protein + high fat meal.

One guy I didn’t know, made this comment on Dr. Michael Eades’s blog, and Mike basically trashed him and implied he was either a moron or lying. I was really mad at him for doing that since to me, the dude had been a lowcarb doc for a long time, I was more shocked he had NOT heard of this than anything, let alone that he didn’t want to hear reality apparently. (I think this was not far apart from a post he wrote on why if you’re not losing on keto you’re probably eating too many almonds or something, which was the last straw for me – there is so much more involved FFS, I swear humans can make anything into bad religious doctrine you’re not allowed to violate lest you be a heretic – and I stopped reading his stuff. Despite it was a cardiologist recommending his book to me that actually got me to LC, basically, or at least set me up to look into it, though it was awhile before I finally went on it.)

I digressed. So anyway, due to years house/room/bed-ridden for the heart thing, fat regained, edema added, muscle all-body wasted, at that point after heart surgery – and even now after losing 130# again but slowly – I can eat that same meal and I do not react that way. So something changed in my body.

This suggests to me that it’s not like, some inherently genetic thing, because Jimmy and others did not have that experience originally. We all ate that all the time. We only got it after all of us had lost a high amount of weight pretty fast.

I suspect that info about how insulin is elevated often for years before there is enough organ then muscle ‘resistance’ to it to spark higher glucose, might be part of this. Maybe it takes a lot longer to heal the over-insulin problem. We healed the high glucose problem with low carb – but the high-insulin issue was still present. And now, without high glucose to be stuffing into cells, it was instead driving our glucose into the basement.

So I feel like reactive hypoglycemia might be a good study group to research for more on the high-insulin-but-not-high-glucose situation.


#205

Lately I feel like I might say that! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


(Carolyn aka stokies) #206

OMG - so very true! I love how apparently everyone at work thinks I am dying of cancer- because how else could my fat ass lose weight, right? Pardon the displaced anger - just fed up with know-it-alls who have NO idea. I just say I have learn to eat right by my body’s needs and leave it at that.


(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #207

So true. It took 50+ lbs before someone asked. I told my wife I think they think I have cancer.

Of course several people knew I was keto that I trust and that are or became keto. A few others saw my twitter tweets.

Now people routinely say something. But one thing has changed, my face looks better than it did 3 months ago. I’m assuming some autophagy and also body recomposition by upping meat to non-meat ratio. AKA Drifting toward carnivore. But those are guesses.


(Carolyn aka stokies) #208

It took me losing 100 before anyone other than my partner noticing :angry:

Petty jealousy, mostly, is my guess.

Keep at it! You are kicking butt!


(John) #209

Yeah, I kind of ended up with a gaunt look to my face. Like my body said “Hey, let’s burn the fat in the cheekbone area before we work on that waistline” so I ended up with a somewhat hollow, sunken cheek look. Also, my “Jabba the Hutt” neck has now shrunk down but I have the old-man turkey neck thing in in its place.

So it did make me look older. I used to joke that the fat keeps the wrinkles puffed out.

But even though I am still losing, my face seems to be normalizing a bit and the neck flab is still shrinking, so I am starting to either look a bit younger, or I am just getting used to the leaner, craggier old man look in the mirror.


(Old Baconian) #210

Here is a study by Conn and Newburgh, quoted by Amber O’Hearn in a blog post, showing the effect of protein on the the blood sugar, compared with the effects of glucose and carbohydrate: THE GLYCEMIC RESPONSE TO ISOGLUCOGENIC QUANTITIES OF PROTEIN AND CARBOHYDRATE

The amount of protein administered was calculated on the assumption that half the protein would be converted into glucose. I’m not sure how accurate that assumption is; other possiibilities are that protein can be wasted in the urine, and deaminated amino acids could be stored as fat. The graphs accompanying the article are particularly fascinating, since the quantity of protein administered, if it really was turned to glucose at the percentage assumed, had practically no effect on serum glucose.

Some other citations from Amber’s post, that people may find interesting:

  1. The relationship between gluconeogenic substrate supply and glucose production in humans (Jahoor et al.)

  2. The Effects of Carbohydrate Variation in Isocaloric Diets on Glycogenolysis and Gluconeogenesis in Healthy Men (Bisschop et al.)

  3. Incretin and islet hormonal responses to fat and protein ingestion in healthy men (Carr, et al.)


(hottie turned hag) #211

Not a joke, friend. My buttocks has actual accordion-like folds and wrinkles where formerly resembled two bowling ball implants.
Sorry for that visual, fellas.


(Murphy Kismet) #212

Yep.
And I keep my hair buzz-short. And then the weight came off. Perfect storm! lol