No! Grass fed is NOT a keto rule


(Diane) #146

Extremely well said!


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #147

Completely disagree.

There is a multitude of reasons to eat grass fed meat and organic vegetables, not to mention wild-caught fish. To wit: antibiotics, pesticides, the abysmal fatty acid mix in grain-fed meat, and eating the meat from animals fed terrible carbohydrates. If it’s true that grains are no good for us, why would you think that grain-fed animals are any good for us?

We shouldn’t make the perfect the enemy of the better – but I’d rather save money on clothes or rent than compromising on organic and grass-fed. This is what you’re putting into your body!


(Ken) #148

It’s easily arguable that none of those points are scientifically significant enough to justify the difference in cost. Hey, do what you want, it’s your opinion and belief. It is certainly not a keto rule.

To compare a herbivore, especially a ruminant, digestive tract to a human one doesn’t help make your case. You might as well go on the"Ape Diet"…

Paying nutty prices for grass fed beef is the real example of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.


(Diane) #149

Yep. That.


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #150

Not drinking bleach isn’t a keto rule either, but it’s a pretty good idea to avoid it.

There wasn’t sufficient scientific evidence that tobacco causes cancer and heart disease and there still isn’t peer-reviewed double blind trials proving it, but we’re quite content to base our national recommendations on what we do have.

The poisons in our food supply are a disaster. Organic and grass-fed foods are a way to avoid the worst of these toxins. Do I wish there was a trustworthy federal certification program? Sure. Do I wish the prices were lower? Absolutely. But there’s plenty of people, especially in the low carb community, including if I’m not mistaken Jimmy Moore, who are satisfied with the evidence and work on the basis of the precautionary principle.

So sure, it’s not a keto rule. But if you can afford it, buy organic, grass-fed, and wild as often as you can. IMHO.


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #151

Oh and this is a terrible argument. We know the fatty acid mix in grain-fed vs grass-fed beef. You want to talk science?

“Research spanning three decades supports the argument that grass-fed beef (on a g/g fat basis), has a more desirable SFA lipid profile (more C18:0 cholesterol neutral SFA and less C14:0 & C16:0 cholesterol elevating SFAs) as compared to grain-fed beef. Grass-finished beef is also higher in total CLA (C18:2) isomers, TVA (C18:1 t11) and n-3 FAs on a g/g fat basis. This results in a better n-6:n-3 ratio that is preferred by the nutritional community. Grass-fed beef is also higher in precursors for Vitamin A and E and cancer fighting antioxidants such as GT and SOD activity as compared to grain-fed contemporaries.”


(Ken) #152

I’m not sure if you understand my point. It’s a matter of degree. The marginal differences are not big enough to justify the difference in cost.

The real funny thing is that, as has been pointed out before, virtually all cattle eat grass during some period of their lives. So, since I’m not aware of any legal restriction or requirements, all beef could be called grass fed and be technically correct. (excluding milk fed veal). Even corn is a grass, so corn finishing could be called grass fed as well. I haven’t seen any beef marketed as “totally grain free” yet, but it may be out there. Even then I’d be skeptical, as eating grain was a natural part of a wild ruminant’s diet.

Do what you want, it’s your choice. What I consider “Nutty Keto” you obviously consider “Righteous and Good”. But when you make an assertion, don’t be surprised when it’s challenged.

I enjoyed your response, the bleach example was both funny as well as plain’ol “Nutty”…


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #153

You keep saying that I make baseless assertions, but that’s simply not the case. You’re the one doing that; I’ve provided you with one metastudy (of many) that shows the fatty acid mix in grass-fed meats vs grain-fed. There is no question, if you want to talk science, of the benefits of consuming such meat and the detriment of consuming too much omega 6 – which grain-fed beef gives us far too much of.

Quite aside from that, the research on organic food is extensive.

If you want to consume unnecessary antibiotics, eat loads of omega 6 fats, and poison yourself with untold amounts of carcinogenic pesticides from industrial agriculture, that’s up to you – just as it most certainly is up to me to pay more and get cleaner food.

I’ve had family members diagnosed with cancer. First thing the oncologist suggests? Organic ONLY. Yep, it’s anecdotal, and yet I hear it ALL the time.

Why wait till you get cancer to stop eating carcinogenic crap?

There’s absolutely no reason for you to tell me, or anybody on this forum, that there’s no evidence for consuming such food. You make your choice, and you can justify it by imagining that there’s zero benefit. If you truly can’t afford such foods, I completely understand, but that’s no reason to peddle anti-scientific nonsense while falsely claiming the mantle of “science” and “evidence.” It’s not on your side on this one.


(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #154

Individuals will value the differences differently. Food quality is not a keto rule, but for some, there is larger benefit to pursuing the food quality aspect, beyond straight macros. Allow me to rephrase for you, so that we can all agree to disagree:

The marginal differences (as I understand them) are not big enough to justify the difference in cost (to me).

I get that my changes are implied, maybe, but I’m not entirely sure that we understand every substance on earth’s nutritional value (gut biome understanding is like ten minutes old and in it’s infancy, given it’s apparent importance… and what is it about cinnamon, turmeric, garlic, etc…), so I’m okay maybe spending some more on some things for what you consider marginal benefit. Personally, I feel that I can use any marginal benefit I can afford.


(Ken) #155

You forgot to put IMO before your response. And yes, as I’ll reiterate, it’s a matter of degree of benefit. I’m not aware of any longevity studies comparing diets of completely grass fed (if there really is such beef available on a commercial basis) with normally finished beef, especially within a lipolytic nutritional pattern. That could be considered reasonably scientific, but it’s highly unlikely anything like that will be performed in the near future. Just getting people to believe that meat and fat are healthy is the real issue rather than getting caught up in the minutiae of of a GF vs. Normal beef comparison. It’s also arguable that the vegan types really want GF beef due to the belief that it’s price would prohibit people from eating much of it. Much like some people want high gas prices to assist in their various agendas.

I’d assert that GF beef is not necessarily of higher quality, and that that perception is due to successful marketing rather than fact.I can remember the hype starting over 15 years ago, it was sketchy then, as it is now. It was aimed at your typical health enthusiast type, often susceptible to Apocalyptic warnings about health. If you believe GF beef is somehow higher quality, just because it is GF, I’d say the marketing is successful. To me, it’s a nutty concept. If you feel good about yourself for eating it, have at it. One person’s idea about superior virtue is another one’s “A fool and his money are soon parted”…
.


#157

This is an excellent point that we need to circle back to in this thread. I’m in partial agreement with everyone here but there are also points I disagree on. The fact is however that we aren’t comparing apples to apples. Grassfed/grass finished is likely better, on some level we all agree. How much better is the question. And are there varying degrees of grassfed? Just because a cow is grassfed and grass finished doesn’t really tell us the whole story. Was it fresh grass? Was it a hormone and antibiotic free animal? I tend to agree that some expert marketing has made grassfed seem like something it isn’t. For example what’s better: grassfed/grass finished beef or Organic feedlot beef? Both are probably better than regular beef but to what degree?

I’ve done a lot of research and my current position is this: buy whatever beef looks good, go with grassfed/grass finished ground beef when possible because it isn’t that much more, always buy the good eggs, and always buy the wild caught seafood. That’s been our plan the last few months and it works great. I did a 3 month stint of eating only organic produce and pastured animals and the only big difference I noticed was my bank account balance.


(Rob) #158

While I am with you on the principles (O6:O3, etc.), the issue is materiality. The meta analysis is long and wordy but has no real useable conclusions because it doesn’t quantify anything in a meaningful way. You scan the numbers from the multiple studies and most readings are in the 0-10% difference range. The word ‘significant’ is used but that doesn’t mean ‘a lot’ as you know well in your studies. Only one study seems to show meaningful differences. It also shows that the macro profiles for the grass fed is less keto (leaner) and suggests eating more to get more fat. Thanks for nothing, nerds :nerd_face:

Thus the conclusions just say the ratio is “better” and levels are “higher” but not how much. I suspect it would be disappointingly small from the source data. At which point the issue of materiality and bang for the buck becomes important.

This study was pushed out from UC Davis, a premier agricultural school, with a very strong grass-fed agenda. This is supportive of their position and should be seen in this light. I’m not saying that they are faking anything, just that they are painting the rosiest possible picture for their chosen stance. I know I would.

In the end there seems to be no preponderance of science to say it is definitively materially beneficial and we each have to make our own judgements on whether it is worth the extra money for grass fed. Material circumstances trump theory every time. Mine have improved and I am probably going to up my meat game but I’m doing it for flavor, not health.


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #159

I almost exclusively eat organic pasture-raised meat from upstate New York. I buy it at my local butcher, which deals exclusively with pasture-raised meat, primarily beef and chicken but also some others. The prices are high.

I just posted a meta-analysis showing that GF has consistently been shown to be better for you. Also, common sense. Do you want your beef to come from cows that have spent their lives being pumped full of grain in a factory farm, or from cows raised in a field outdoors eating grass and hay? What is so controversial about saying the latter is superior?

I’m not an ideologue. I’m certainly not vegan. But when your meat costs next to nothing (as grain fed beef does), how do you actually think they get it that cheap? And do you really think that the hormones, antibiotics, shitty grain feed, and awful life circumstances of those animals don’t have any effect on your health? THAT is a nutty concept to me.


(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #160

I’m sorry, but this does not exist.
Your typical beev is pastured for most of it’s life, and then spends maybe 2-3 months at a feed lot being “finished.” All cows are grass fed at some point. The so called grass fed cows are grass fed in the summer and hay fed in the winter during their growth. The “factory farm” cows are grass fed in the summer, hay fed in the winter, then transfered to a feed lot for finishing with oats, corn and whatnot.

The amazing thing about ruminants is that they are grass fermenting machines… they ferment the food so we don’t have to.

I’d recommend some Peter Ballerstedt if you want a better understanding. I fully endorse your decision to purchase pastured local animals. But I don’t think the virtue gap between you and costco beef is quite as wide as you present it.


(Ken) #161

You’re certainly entitled to your religious beliefs. Be happy you have so much faith. You might want to reread this thread from the beginning, this is all becoming a huge rehash.

I don’t think you’re bad because of your beliefs, I just happen to think you’re wrong. You have complete freedom to express your views, as long as you don’t try to impose them on others, although people tend to get tired of proselytization.


(Todd Allen) #162

I get local pastured/grass fed $2/lb beef liver, $2.5/lb beef cap fat and $3/lb beef heart. I might be able to save a buck or two a week eating the cheapest industrial beef but compared to what I’ve been saving in medical costs the past couple years my food costs are small.


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #163

Nobody is trying to impose anything. I also think you’re wrong, and that’s why I’m responding to a thread that is overtly trying to proselytize people into NOT buying grass fed.


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #164

EXACTLY!


(Gabe “No Dogma, Only Science Please!” ) #165

If you seriously think that industrially farmed cows are out grazing grass and wandering the fields, you’re seriously misguided my man!


(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #166

I dunno Gabe, I just drove across 7 states from south to north, and saw plenty of cows out eating green grass… beef cows, dairy cows… Florida, Georgia, Wisconsin, Illinois… maybe Kentucky. I didn’t keep a log… You seriously need to listen to some Peter Ballerstedt if you believe that industrial cows eat cattle feed from birth to slaughter… Forage Agronomist and head of the Ruminati.