Newbie - Inflammation

#1

Morning all,
Just double checking as I do find that my days (after 5 weeks) do kind of fluctuate as to how well I’m feeling. But I’ve noticed in the past couple of weeks some inflammation flareups in some odd places like my heel, my elbow, etc. It’s not gout. About a year ago I was on the Plant Paradox diet and it really diminished my inflammation throughout my body but found it almost impossible to follow the diet. Don’t get me wrong - I have days and days when I feel awesome but once in awhile I get this sharp pain in a weird spot and think “what now?” LOL Just wondering if you’ve heard of this and if it’s perhaps part of the adaption. As always, I appreciate any feedback.

#2

Sorry, I should note that I’ve not fallen off with any sugar or carbs. I’ve been eating primarily beef, some pork, eggs and a bit of goat cheese for calcium. The only “naughty” is my decaf coffee.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #3

One possibility is called oxalate dumping. This results from cutting back on eating plants high in oxalates. The oxalates form rather sharp crystals that can cause pain. Dr. Annette Bosworth (“Dr. Boz”) discusses this on her Web site, and her advice is to just get through it and then continue with a low-oxalate diet from then on. (She says the same thing about kidney and gall stones, by the way.)

#4

Paul, thank you so much - you are always so helpful. This definitely could be a possibility as leading up to Carnivore, i was eating a LOT of spinach, beets and nuts and I’m reading that those are super high in oxalates. The good thing is that, for example, i got this sharp pain in my elbow. It lasted about 3 days but then got better and is all but gone now. What i did read on oxalates also points to calcium which I’m struggling with how to get enough of that on Carnivore. Does everybody add calcium to their diet? I continue to have occasional cramping and I suspect low calcium because i’ve added magnesium and get enough potassium.

(Joey) #5

@JOE2 Congratulations on being able to power through the transition. Folks who experience this (i.e., latent gout from years of oxalates … just “waiting to happen”) face a special challenge in getting over that hump. It was likely going to “get you” at some point in life whether you went keto or not. Kind of like a ticking time bomb.

As for calcium, I’d be very leery of adding any… beyond what’s already in your current eating. Many believe that one’s need for dietary calcium is significantly reduced when carbs are restricted. And excess calcium (e.g., calcium supplements, in multi-vitamins, etc.) are thought to be more likely to promote atherosclerosis (arterial calcification) than provide any health benefit (teeth, bones).

I would consider adding vitamins K2 and D3 if you’re not already … as these help direct calcium to the proper tissues and alleviate excess serum calcium. They may also help with mitigating the crystalization of oxalates, but I can’t provide any peer-reviewed research on this question. Perhaps others can?

:vulcan_salute:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #6

No. Most people don’t seem to. It is easier to keep calcium, magnesium, and potassium balance if we get enough sodium (at least double the U.S. recommendation), so start there, and see if you actually need to worry about calcium.

We know this is true for Vitamin C, for example. But we have to be careful about generalising from that to other nutrients. The needs of ketonians may or may not be different from those of people on the standard recommended diet.

(Joey) #7

Agreed. The “many believe” phrasing is in recognition of the fact that there’s no compelling evidence of this - at least that I’ve come across.

p.s. - I understand the premise for believing there’s reduced calcium need hinges on the observation that more calcium is excreted in urine when restricting carbs, and the presumption is that the body wouldn’t jettison calcium if it were needed.

[Then again, many believe the moon landing was a hoax :roll_eyes: ]

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #8

That is compelling logic, to be sure.

(Alec) #9

Sounds exactly like oxalate dumping… flare ups, temporary, feels like inflammation, you used to eat lots of high oxalate foods, now you eat none… your body is purging and the oxalates don’t really have nice ways of exiting the body. Just go with it… my only caution is that this can last a fair while… months and in some cases years. So don’t give up. You are doing this right.

I think my body is still dumping oxalates over a year after going carni… I have some weird rash under my right eye that flares up occasionally, and then just goes away. I looked it up, and from what I read, prime site for oxalate dumping.

(Chuck) #10

This is good to know as I have been having some skin rashes lately, mostly late in the day after my evening meal. Then it is gone by the time I wake up the next morning. But I do eat a some green vegetables and some nuts. But I have given up beans, grains and potatoes.

#11

I want to thank everyone for sharing - it really does help. I’ve researched the oxalates a bit and although my previous diet did have some high oxalate items like spinach and sweet potatoes and nuts and kale, most of what I was eating were lower in oxalates like cauliflower, cabbage, asparagus, etc.
Since I’m new here, I’m not positive if dropping a link is allowed (if it isn’t then hopefully the administrator will just remove it) but I just listened to a podcast on oxalates and oxalate dumping on carnivore and learned a TON. Here’s the podcast:

I think the real positive about it is that no matter what I have to go through with the dumping, I’m NOT continuing to ingest these oxalates daily like I was. And the bad symptoms and bad health don’t just come from the dumping.

(Joey) #12

And to think that folks laugh when it’s said “plants are trying to kill us” :wink:

( … admittedly, I like my spinach, broccoli, nuts … but I haven’t yet had issues with oxalates, at least of which I’ve been aware. :thinking: )

(Alec) #13

I don’t laugh, I think this is spot on and accurate. I cannot tell you how different I feel without the plants compared to with the plants. Yes, there are downsides like this oxalate dumping, but the overall health result package of not eating plants from my view is revolutionary.

I feel fantastic without the bloody plants. I have listened intently and read quite broadly (Sally Norton, Dr Chaffee, Paul Saladino etc) on the whys of this… why would plants be trying to kill me, and indeed the hows… and it all seems to line up to me to my practical day to day experience. This is an n=1, but in my world the only n=1 that matters! :slight_smile:

(Joey) #14

I’m not laughing either. Having been told that low fat was healthy all the decades - and finding out the scientific truth - it doesn’t phase me that those heaping “healthy” salads I’ve been eating might also not be quite what they’re cracked up to be.

Lately, I’ve been eating more beef, ham, turkey, eggs, cheese, fish, and skipping the salads for days at a time - and I feel just as great (perhaps better?)

My plant eating is largely limited to avocados, olives, and a handful of nuts. (Oh, yeah, and my home-fermented sauerkraut, pickles and kimchee.)

Keeping an open mind.

(Alec) #15

Always a good idea! :joy: Science tells us that we should be continuously trying to disprove our beliefs by experimenting, again and again and again. Just believing the guru (whoever they are) just because they said so, does not result in the right answer.

I’ve been wrong on this stuff so many times it is laughable. I remember thinking that I had the solution to my fat problem back in my 20s with a very low fat diet. I was eating grains and grains and salads, and fruit and god knows what else… lean chicken breast OMG, I hated that! But it worked…. For a time, and then it didn’t, probably because I could not stick to it, that’s what normally happens. I have tried every weight loss method under the sun, and every one of them failed for me.

I am currently on carnivore and I feel the best I have for 30 years, maybe even forever…. But remembering back 30 years when I was thin and fit (I did a half Ironman!) is not that easy! But given all the experience, trial and error and the multiple decade journey, I have ended up on carnivore. Right now, I can’t see myself moving away from it, but I am wise enough to recognise that I have said that quite a few times before.

But this last years carnivore journey has taught me something quite different and revolutionary compared to previous efforts and learnings: I do not do well on plants. In fact, the fewer plants the better, and preferably zero. Before I went carnivore if you had told me I shouldn’t eat plants I would have dismissed the idea as utterly ridiculous. I was a bloomin’ veggie gardener!

But by paying attention and keeping an open mind, I have learnt something quite dramatic, and for me, life changing: I have lost 30% of my bodyweight by stuffing my face every single day. But only with meat and a little bit of dairy. And the bodyfat has just dropped off, slowly, steadily and inevitably. Leaving me feeling just A1 Bloody Fantastic!

Folks, keep an open mind and try things… try carnivore for a bit.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #16

It is certainly allowed, so long as it isn’t advertising. Notice that I edited your post so that the link appears on a line by itself. This usually causes the forum software to display it more visibly.

#17

Thank you Paul for helping with the link!