New to Keto, what should I change in my routine dear Keto natty body builders?


(Sebastien Szczepaniak) #1

Hi the Keto community -

I’m 45, 78Kg, 183cm, 8% BF. French, living in Switzerland.
I come from a triathlon and cycling background but I’ve always pick up weights and enjoyed lifting over the last 20 years. Over the last 6/7 years, I’ve been into bodybuilding a bit more seriously.

Up to Jan 15th 2020, I was IF 16/8 with a regular bro-carb diet, very low in fat, very high in protein (2.5g per kg of body weight minimum…).
Happy with results but always a bit struggling with hunger, mood changes and lack of overall energy outside the gym or on my bike (I still bike a lot for cardio and for fun…).

I transitionnel to Keto on Jan 15th… strict keto, 20g net carbs, reducing my protein intake to 2g per kg, rest in fat. 2800 calories total. While my bike performance suffered a lot (and still does), my weight game did not change really. I am able to push as hard as before, I am mostly working RPT and compound movements. I deadlift 2x my body weight, 1.5 bench press, 1x OHP, etc…

I do not think I am fat adapted yet, but believe from the feelings I have that I am right on my way to it. 5 weeks on…

While I switched to Keto, I kept the same routine i.e. IF 16/8, 20g of BCAAs 10 minutes before working out (so technically I do not train fasted), then first meal right after work out (1.30 pm) and the other around 8pm.

What’s your views on this? is this sustainable with Keto Diet long term? any way to improve this? I was scrupulously following advices from the guy of #ketosavage (Sykes) who is a pro bodybuilder, natty, completely Keto, who is giving really good insights on how to build a physique while Keto.

Happy to hear your views and entertain the thread.

(Scott) #2

It took me about three months of keto before my cardio felt like it was getting stronger again. I am a runner and needed frequent walk breaks at first. At 19 months in I don’t even think about being tired anymore.

(Bob M) #3

You might consider a targeted ketogenic diet or a cyclic ketogenic diet, if you lose energy while lifting or bump up against a wall for strength/mass.

I’ve personally been trying a few more carbs after lifting, but my bodybuilding days are way behind me. It does seem to help a bit though, and I’ve remained in ketosis.

(Tony ) #4

( Not natty here, medical TRT ) I’ve been keto for two years now and lifting weights for slightly longer. I tried increasing carbs on gym days for an energy boost but it didn’t seem to make a difference. I increased my diets protein and fat intake ( I dont really count it now, just eat until i’m very full )and thats made a big improvement. Both energy and weights lifting results increased ( almost doubling my flat bench dumbell weights in three months ). My weight has increased around 4kgs but my waist size has stayed the same.

(Bob M) #5

Did you try before a workout or after or both?

The TKD (targeted ketogenic diet) websites I’ve seen advocate some carbs prior to the workout, if you’re having issues with energy during the workout. Those are issues I don’t have (in fact, some of my best workouts are after 33 hours of fasting).

What concerns me, though, is that I train to failure. That means I cannot lift any more. I’m doing body weight exercises, so I’ll do pushups (as an example) until I can’t do any more, then I’ll incline my feet and do them until I can’t do more, then do pushups on an incline (hands on incline) until I can’t do anymore, raise the incline, do pushups until I can’t do more. I’ll usually do 3 sets like this per body part. So, pushups, presses (on machine), dips (with help from machine).

I am slowly gaining strength, but I was trying to gain a little faster. That’s the reason for trying carbs. But I’m also 55, so maybe this is what I get.

I have seemed to have gotten a bit stronger using carbs after my workouts for the last 2 weeks. That could be a fluke, though.

NOTE: I only lift twice a week, and split my “body” in half. So, I only do chest once per week.

(Kenny Croxdale) #6

Protein Too High

That amount of protein intake equates to using a sledge hammer to kill a fly. It is over kill.

Protein intake of around 1.6 to 2.0 gram per kg of body weight is more than enough unless you are in a very restrictive calorie deficit.

BCAA’s Pre-Workout

It’s questionable if taking BCAA’s before workouts do much, short term or long term.

Meal After Training

Research (Dr Brad Shoenfeld) shows that consuming something right after training isn’t any more effective than consuming it hour after training.

After training, Muscle Protein Synthesis is elevated for up to 24 hours; providing a larger window.

Keto Long Term

The longer you go, the better adapted you become for everything including your training.

Keto Adapted Energy Training Systems

There are three Energy Systems…

  1. Phosphagen Energy System’

This one runs off ATP, Adenosine Triphosphate.

Maximum Strength, Power and Speed Movements are dependent on ATP. Once you run out of ATP, all three of them drop like a rock.

ATP is pretty much depleted in 10 - 15 seconds and complete gone in 30 seconds.

Neither glucose nor ketones directly effect this energy system. That means there is no difference for Glucose Dependent or Keto Adapted individual who train in this system.

Glycolytic Energy System

Exercise in this system is 30 seconds to around 2.0 minutes. It appears to be driven by glucose. Keto Adapted athlete don’t appear to perform well in this energy system.

However, Rachael Gregory’s research with Keto in this area indicates that when individual are given enough time to adapt, their performance is the same with Glucose Dependent individuals.

With that said, I still question how well Keto Adapted individual perform in this energy system.

Oxidative Energy System

This is one of the most research area when it comes to Keto Training, with data from the 1980’s.

Keto Adapted individual perform well in this energy system.

Anti-Glycolytic Training

This mean training in the Phosphagen and Oxidative Energy System; avoiding the Glycolytic Energy System.

Pavel Tsatsouline the Russian who brought Kettlebell Training to American, is advocated of this type of training, for a variety of reasons.

The Size Principle

There is a muscle fiber firing sequence.

Slow Type I Muscle Fiber are innervated first, followed by Fast Type IIa and then “Super” Fast Type IIb/x.

In Maximum Strength, Power and Speed Training, the Fast and “Super” Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber are innervated in milliseconds.

Car Race Sprint Analogy

In let’s say a quarter mile sprint…

Think of the Slow Twitch as a Volkswagen with a 4 cylinder motor. In this car race they start first.

The Fast Twitch are race cars. The Fast Twitch quickly catch up and blow pass the slower Volkswagen.

Long Distance Car Race Analogy

Now think of a long distance car race with the Volkswagen and race car having the same amount of gas.

The race cars are going to lose because they will run out of gas long before the Volkswagen.

The same occurs with Muscle Fiber.

How That Applies To Training

The key to increasing Maximum Strength, Power, Speed is in working and developing Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber. That is best accomplished with keeping repetition low; finishing a set in less than 15 seconds.

This keeps you in the Phosphagen Energy System; the neutral training area for both Keto Adapted and Glycose Dependent athletes.

Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Training

This method falls into the Glycolytic Energy System.

However, recent research by Dr Jonathan Oliver determined a method that promotes Hypertrophy and keeps training in the Phosphagen System…

Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training

This involves short rest periods between set of repetitions in one set. Each repetition is preformed explosively, innervating/developing the Fast Twitch Fiber.

Short rest periods (10 to 45 seconds) are taken between cluster of repetition. This allow ATP to be restored to the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber, keep training them.

Bench Press Cluster Set Example

135 X 2 Reps, rest 15 seconds, perform 2 reps, rest 15 seconds, perform 2 reps, rest 15 seconds, perform 2 reps, rest 15 seconds, perform 2 reps, then stop. This concludes 1 Cluster Set.

Rest 2 - 3 minutes and then repeat the Cluster Set.

Each repetition needsto be performed explosively to innervate the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

Once the weight slows down, stop the exercise. You are no longer working/training the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber; they are taking a nap.

Continuing means you are working the Slow Twitch Fiber, which isn’t the objective.

The Sport Dictates The Energy System

In other word, train in the Energy System that your sport requires.

If you are 400 meter Track Sprinter, you’re in the Glycolytic Energy System. So, train it.

(Kenny Croxdale) #7

Research From Tampa Human Performance Lab

Dr Jake Wilson’s research determined the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet isn’t effective.

Consuming a high carbohydrate diet take you out of ketosis for 5 - 6 days.

Thus, you only end up being in ketosis for a 1 - 2 days.

Secondly, Wilson found that the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet increased fat mass.

After being on a Ketogenic Diet, the body’s machinery isn’t geared to handle a the large amount of glucose. Insulin level go through the roof.

As Jay Rob stated years ago, “Insulin is a fat maker…” It promotes fat storage.

Wilson determined that an individual going from a Keto Diet to a Traditional High Carbohydrate Western Diet, needed to transition slowly.

Consume 100 gram of carbohdyrates for three days. Then 200 gram days. Then 300 gram for three days…

Doing so minimized fat gain.

Not A Fan

I not a fan of this method.

Two alternatives are to use MCT’s or take caffeine, or both. I take both and do just fine.