New to Keto Diet

(Empress of the Unexpected) #43

Do you mean low for a particular person, or a cut-off point low?

(TJ Borden) #44

Hmmm… interesting, but no, I’m talking about the basic metabolic difference between eating one large meal a day or within a small window of time verses eating throughout the day.

Agreed, which is why is suggest eating to satiety instead of counting calories.

I’m simplifying. Telling people they MUST track and count is what over complicates it. Again, if it works for you, great, but don’t insist something is necessary just because you choose to do it.

(shane ) #45

I think you would have a hard time proving that it is a basic metabolic difference, and not a caloric restriction that is to attribute to the weight loss in that scenario.

I do understand the idea for need for breaks between meals to allow your body to use stored fats for energy though where you and I definitely differ is that I believe calorie restriction is a more important factor than fasting is in regards to weight loss.

You and I are going to just have to agree to disagree. Fasting can work for people. Calorie counting can work for people.

One thing I won’t agree with though is to hear you tell people that there is one way to do it.

There are plenty of ketogenic people out there who eat a ketogenic diet, AND track and count calories.

#46

I meant low for me. Basically, when my blood sugar is consistently under 75 mg, I burn fat easily without much hunger. When it gets over 85, I get hungry and tired and don’t burn fat. So, with both the ketones and blood glucose, I was referring to what I’ve observed in myself over the past year. I don’t measure ketones much at all these days.

(Empress of the Unexpected) #47

I’m not a diabetic, but my BG seems to be increasing. I had heard references to the relationship between BG and ketones, so was curious.

#48

I’ve heard of people’s BG increasing while in ketosis, especially in the morning. I think this usually happens when they’ve been eating this way for a while. I’ve also heard that it isn’t a bad thing at all, it means the body is readjusting. I haven’t experienced this myself, but I’ve only been eating this way for about 7 weeks. I started measuring blood a year ago, when I first tried ketosis and then quit for 11 months due to the weight gain and keto flu I experienced.

I bet someone on here knows about the elevated glucose phenomenon and can describe it!

Sweeteners - your experience?
(TJ Borden) #49

The morning phenomenon isn’t special to people in ketosis. It can happen to anyone, keto burner and carb burner alike. It’s a natural phenomenon that allows you to get out of bed and start your day before eating. It’s also something many doctors don’t understand. A friend of mine was about to start taking meds because his doctor said he was pre-diabetic. Turns out, that diagnosis was based on two separate appointments where he had readings of 115. He always made his appointments early in the morning before heading into the office. I suggested he NOT take any meds quite yet and instead schedule his next two appointments at the end of the day and just skip breakfast and lunch (he had played around with the 5:2 diet in the past so he wasn’t afraid of skipping a few meals). Long story…less long. He tested perfectly normal the next couple appointments and the doc said he doesn’t need meds.

Amy Berger talked about the relationship of ketones and glucose on the Keto Woman podcast, turns out there isn’t one. If you’re not eating carbs, then the glucose is from gluconeogenisis (which it’s important to remember is demand driven and not something to fear) and doesn’t have an effect on ketone levels. She also mentioned how it was almost sad that we have ketone meters because the keto way of eating has been around a lot longer than keto meters, and before we had meters people would chase the benefits of keto, not the readings.

I noticed this myself too early on when I was testing ketone levels (before I came to the realization that for the purposes of weight loss and reversing insulin resistance, ketone levels don’t really matter). My fasting glucose was around 120 (still ranged 110-120), but I would still be in the 3.5-4 ketone range.

If your blood sugar is elevated because of too many carbs, then it can lower your ketone levels and/or knock you out of ketosis, but that’s because it’s more than your body needs and so you start using it for fuel and don’t need ketones until the consumed glucose is used up.

I don’t blame you for being concerned about your glucose levels raising, I would be too if I were in your shoes, but it’s likely not something to be concerned about. The more important issue is that the level stays steady and you don’t have peaks and valleys through the day.

(TJ Borden) #50

I’m not trying to “prove” anything to you. I’m simply explaining there’s a metabolic difference between fasting and calorie restriction.

I’m not saying there is only one way to keto, and I’m not saying you shouldn’t do it your way.

But when a newbie (who has already been counting, and it hasn’t been working) is asking how to do keto, I will continue to suggest sticking to the basics and keeping it as simple as possible to start out with. IF that doesn’t work, THEN start looking at variations.

(Empress of the Unexpected) #51

Your idea, as always, is sound, nigh brilliant. I don’t mind skipping breakfast and or lunch at all. But, to play devil’s advocate, doesn’t fasting for more than 12-14 hours screw with the lipid panel?

(Empress of the Unexpected) #52

It’s fine, two hours after a meal today it was 103. I’m a drama queen. But thanks for the reassurance and information.

(TJ Borden) #53

It might, I don’t remember what all would be affected there, but in his case the doc was only concerned about the glucose.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #54

I think that T.J.'s point is that setting an arbitrary calorie goal is counter-productive. Dr. Phinney’s research showed that when eating low carbohydrate, moderate protein, and fat to satiety, his subjects with excess fat to lose automatically stopped eating when they reached about 1500 calories a day, allowing for the burning of excess stored fat along with the dietary fat.

Yes, they restricted their calories, but not intentionally. They let their body set their caloric intake. As Dr. Fung points out, if we intentionally reduce our calories, the body lowers its caloric expenditure to match the caloric intake we give it, so we have to reduce calories further, so the body reduces its expenditure even further, moving the goal posts to make weight loss a highly elusive goal.

As Gary Taubes points out, in order to keep our weight stable by matching our caloric intake to our caloric expenditure according to the calories-in-calories-out model, we would need to guess our expenditure to 99.992% accuracy. I don’t know how to do that, do you? As much as 20 calories over, and we will gain weight, 20 calories under, and we will lose. Why expend mental energy to achieve such precision, when the body has feedback mechanisms that will do the work for us? And especially since the way the body partitions the food we give it depends on the composition of that food?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #55

Forgive what may seem like a challenging question, but what was your reason for aiming to eat 1800 calories instead of to satiety? If you were already so satisfied that you didn’t want lunch, what was the need to reach a specific level of calories at the next meal? I’m confused.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #56

Eating pattern makes a difference, because the longer we can keep our insulin level low, the more likely we are to achieve metabolic healing and lose excess fat.

(TJ Borden) #57

as per usual, you do it much more articulately. :joy:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #58

There is a phenomenon known variously as “glucose-sparing” or “physioligical insulin resistance” (a farily silly name, because it’s no such thing). You can tell if this is happening, because your glucose level rises, but your HbA1c does not. What it means is that your muscles are too happy burning fatty acids and ketone bodies to need any glucose as well, so they leave it for those cells in the body that must have glucose (certain neurons in the brain, red blood cells, certain others). This higher serum glucose level is not a problem because it isn’t raising your insulin and it isn’t glycating your hemoglobin, and it’s nowhere near high enough to be toxic.

(TJ Borden) #59

So that could be interpreted as meaning: elevated glucose could be a sign of one’s brain not using its available energy because it’s not being used?

Wait…don’t answer that…my glucose is still elevated

(Lonnie Hedley) #60

I eat the same thing every day. I forgot my 6 hard boiled eggs at home or forgot to make them. So when I got home from work I was starving. Nothing to do with feeling good enough to skip lunch.

(shane ) #61

If you really believe 20 calories is anymore than a drop in a bucket that would actually sway a pound of weight gain or loss you are mistaken. You do NOT have to be 99. anything percent accurate to lose weight using calorie restriction.

Whoever sold you that is either wrong or you have greatly misunderstood what they are saying. Or you haven’t actually followed calorie restriction for long enough to realize that your calorie needs and intake can fluctuate from day to day and that some days you do go over them and it will have very little impact on the scale the following day.

I intentionally restrict calories. I also eat when I am hungry and that even means at times I am over my calories that I am supposed to eat for the day.

Guess what, I still lose weight at a steady state. I also have a VERY good understanding of my nutrition as well as how adjustments impact my goal at the time.

Things that are not measured are hard to improve/adjust on the fly when they stop working.

(shane ) #62

“Metabolic healing.” Talk about making things difficult to understand for newbies. How is this measured?

When are the newbies “healed” so the weight loss and all the good things start happening?