New to carnivore questions - esp. eggs


(Susan) #1

Hi friends. I’ve been reading this web site for quite a while now. I’ve been on keto for about a year and a half with minimal results. (245 to 225 to 250 and now to 240 - each step over many months - all while in ketosis as shown by blood levels.) I’m also 2mad.

I’ve listened to most of the 2kd podcasts and read lots of web sites and books by Phinney, Fung, Westman and others. Right now, I’m not is a space where I can spend that much time on researching the carnivore diet as completely. I find lots of stuff on why carnivore is good for you, but have been a little frustrated with exactly what to do. Here’s what I’ve gleaned. Please let me know if I’m getting it right and it’s really this simple.

2 meals with about 1 lb. of animal protein a day. Any meat, fish, poultry. The fattier the better. No dairy at least at first. What I’ve heard about eggs has been equivocal. Some say yes, some no. I have 14 laying hens and eggs will be a big part of my diet.

About eggs:
Large eggs are about 2 ounces each. Rule of thumb for Phinney and Virta is one ounce of meat is about 7 g of protein. A large egg has 6.3 g of protein, so 1 egg counts as 1 ounce of meat. Also, calories from eggs are about 2/3 fat and 1/3 protein. I read in one of the carnivore sites that eggs don’t have the same ‘staying power’ as meat. Perhaps that’s because they’re counting a 2 ounce egg as 2 ounces of protein? It does get confusing when you have to translate between grams of actual protein and ounces/pounds of meat. I’m rarely able to eat an entire pound of meat or anything close to 16 eggs in a sitting. 8 is a challenge.


(Elizabeth ) #2

We recommend 2 lb of meat a day so yes 1 lb per setting if you need to eat three meals a day at first then that’s fine. Eggs on the side or to replace part of the meat but we had a long-term carnivore that went only eggs for 30 days and he needed between 30 and 36 to fill full and he lost muscle. They don’t quite have the same nutritional content as ruminant meat does


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #3

The point of the carnivore diet is to avoid all food that comes from plants. Incidental carbohydrate, such as glycogen from meat muscle can safely be disregarded.

Some people make an exception to the no-plants rule and drink coffee or tea, others drink only water.

Since dairy is not plant food, it fits in a carnivore diet, so long as you can tolerate lactose and milk proteins (you can have a difficulty with one and still be fine with the other).


(Susan) #4

@Elizedge Since a 2 ounce egg has 6.3 g of protein and 1 ounce of meat has about 7 g of protein, it would make sense that you’d have to have twice the amount of eggs to equal the ounces of meat. So 16 eggs would be slightly less protein than 16 ounces of meat. 16x2 is 32 - right at the average of what this fellow needed. I’m not planning on or recommending just eggs, just saying that when thinking of equivalencies, 1 large egg should count as about 1 ounce of meat.


#5

1 lb of animal protein sounds low, sure, it may be enough for some under certain conditions but not enough for a single meal for others… It’s enough for a meal for me, well it depends but for a day? Nope.

1 lb is about 10 eggs, it can be a nice part of my day but far from enough (and I don’t mean I need more eggs)! And yep, you can’t live on eggs, it is nutritious food but doesn’t have everything…
“Staying power”… It’s individual and you probably don’t need the most substantial and satiating food you can get. I personally like eggs and find them very good anyway. I basically live on them for multiple reasons but of course, meat is necessary too, clearly. I will raise the amount of meat later when I actually can, it’s a must IMO but I will surely experiment with a heavily eggy style as it suits me the best. I eat many eggs per day since a decade on low-carb, that wasn’t too bad and now I swapped plants with meat, I don’t expect problems, just improvements. But how much eggs and meat is okay, well, I will figure out, I hope.

No dairy sounds a nice elimination diet idea but not everyone wants to do it if they feel they have no problems with dairy. I only tried no dairy for a super short time (days :D) but it felt unnecessarily restrictive (I could skip it but I don’t see the point and it helps me), now I am wary with lactose, that’s it. We don’t want to eat sugar galore, after all. A tiny cream here and there, some people can handle it and some don’t. I try to keep it very low. But my harder cheese is nice.

I like the idea to build your own woe and do whatever suits you, not following general guidelines - but it surely suits many people and it may be a good start. I value the experience of others, they are informative but we are individuals. Ever our body works a bit differently but our circumstances and what our attitude to this all matter too.

Number of meals? Individual. I know it isn’t always realistic but for the start, what if you just eat when you are hungry? If it’s one meal, fine, if it’s 4, that is fine too. I had both on some rare days but 2-3 is more typical. But I change my food choices or timing and it easily changes too. There is no One Right Way.

About the amounts again… Our protein need is individual too. Some people needs twice as much as me and in rare cases, some people needs half as much as me… Our energy need is different too and if one needs lots of energy but not so much protein, it’s not always the best choice to eat a ton of extra fat. I personally don’t like that when I feel really good with more than adequate protein. I do try to keep my protein from going extra high, I consider it wasteful but twice as much as my need, at least now and then? I couldn’t avoid it if I wanted and it never was a problem. But some people feel they overate protein and it causes problems for them. So, listen to your body, I guess. It works for me, hopefully your body works well enough to be able to tell you when something is a bit wrong.


(Susan) #6

@Shinita Thanks for the long, helpful reply. I’m 2mad because it feels good. I only got that way after about a year of the 3mad ketogenic diet. I eat the first meal at anywhere between 10am and 2pm depending on my hunger.

I’m not consuming dairy at this point because of my problems with not losing weight. A year and a half of keto and 5 lbs loss to show for it? Not very inspiring. I’ve read a number of people on this site saying that dairy stalls them. I would MUCH prefer to eat dairy, but I’m getting frustrated with the lack of weight loss and briefly considered going back on the DM meds and eating carbs again. Switching to carnivore seemed a safer bet to start with. After I’ve lost about 10 lbs on carnivore (if I do!), perhaps I’ll try dairy again and see what happens. My usual breakfast used to be a smoothie with 4-5 raw eggs, and 3/4 cup of HWC. I’d sure like to go back to that. It was scrumptious and didn’t taste much like eggs. I think at first, I might try the eggs with canned coconut milk instead of HWC and see if that has any adverse effect on my weight. If I lose weight, even slowly, (and stay euglycemic with my type 2 DM), I don’t have a need to be super strict on carnivore. I never had cravings on keto, but now I find I’m craving ice cream. Sigh. Thanks again for your response.


#7

Don’t do this :wink:

It sounds you haven’t started carnivore yet. Carnivore is meat/seafood/fish only.

Thing is you have to go ‘all in’ and ‘go for it’ hook line and sinker. There are no great zc results unless one does the plan tight and committed.

Eat meat. Eat seafood. Eat eggs. Eat fish. Anything with a mom and dad and is animal is fair game! Eat all you want, all you need at all times. The ‘normal around town’ for most of us when starting is about 2 lbs per day but that can vary wildly, some eat 4 lbs a day in meat…so don’t ‘box yourself’ in with ‘what amt to eat’…go by your appetite and your body and eat all you must. Your body will change as you stay zc and ask different amts of food from you. But eat when hungry, don’t eat when not. It really is so simple if we just allow that to happen.

Your ‘protein in eggs’ you are trying to compare ‘against say beef or other heavy dense meats’ just ‘isn’t the same’ at all. In that yea, we can protein out those numbers and make them equal out in some ways, but the food content will never be the same for your body at all. Muscle meats/organ meats/seafood/fish filet etc. are dense compact heavy hitters and carry a ton more nutrients to your body vs. an egg type diet. Eggs for most won’t hold you or nourish you in any way that heavy dense meat/seafood/fish will do so that is why Elizedge said most of us ‘use eggs’ as a side dish with meat. They are fab to use up and enjoy for most (unless one has an egg type sensitivity) but they are should not truly be concentrated on as a main course over a long time.

Meat. Eat the meat LOL Have yourself a 1/2 lb steak and like 6-8 eggs on the side if you want but pairing eggs with meat is best for most of us zc people…yea there are some that do eggs as a meal but not many of us…we eat the meat :wink:

yea this is that line you aren’t quite sure if you are gonna go all in or not. I get it. But if you go carnivore way, go all in. Anything short of that is just heavy ‘ketovore’ based menu, which is GOOD, don’t get me wrong but it will never equal zero carb menu in that we are the ultimate elimination menu of all plant carbs. So your experience doing all in carnivore will be quite different than a heavy meat based keto plan ya know…but wishing you the best which way you roll!!!


#8

We all need to find our own way…
It’s a good idea to try it without dairy, it’s just an unnecessary restriction for some of us.
3/4 cup of HWC, well I surely wouldn’t do that :smiley: Maybe it works for you but it’s very much sugar for me and lots of extra calories without a satiation effect (but many people do get satiated with it and need the calories too. I get enough from my normal food).

Coconut milk is vastly different from cream, not even remotely similar. Not even so fatty but the taste is weaker and worse too. But it’s probably individual as almost everything. I surely won’t bring it back (I made some almost every day a few years ago. I consumed no cream back then). And this is only the taste.

I see no problem with ice cream though craving it sounds bad. I eat as much ice cream even on carnivore as I want. It’s accidentally zero but it’s a good enough ice cream. A tiny plant matter and it’s an awesome ice cream :slight_smile: Actually, my ice cream is a close relative to your smoothie except I don’t use the whites. Freezing makes wonders with that stuff. And I love eggy stuff, my original ice cream had no cream either but it really needed the tiny (and not even keto-friendly but it doesn’t matter as keto bans nothing) plant matter then.

Our habits and tastes may change very easily on carnivore. I had what, a few days here and there and still changed a lot. And when my carbs are very low, I just don’t crave things. Especially not sweets. It’s one big reason I like carnivore(-ish. a little plant matter doesn’t bother me at all, just makes it doable for a slightly longer term. but it’s really, really tiny), it immediately turns off my desires to complicate my woe with snack type things. You just eat, eggs, meat, whatever, and you feel more satisfied than with all the various normal dishes and desserts and savory snacks on keto/low-carb. At least it is the case for me. It doesn’t happen with almost only eggs, meat has a very big and important role for multiple reasons. But eggs and meat combined, that’s powerful.


(Katie) #9

^Agreed. For some people it is not about the carbohydrates, it is just about eliminating the plant sources.

^Agreed. A lot of people recommend starting out without dairy because dairy is a common issue for many people, and a lot of people like to use the use the carnivore diet as an elimination diet (and later add foods back in to test if they cause a problem). If it is not too stressful for you @late_to_the_party, I recommend starting without dairy.


(Katie) #10

Welcome Susan!

It seems like you are overthinking it, which I did too when first starting (and still do from time to time :slight_smile: ).

I am guessing based upon your first paragraph that your goal is weight loss? The simplest way to do carnivore is summed up as “eat when you are hungry, stop when you are full” eating only animal foods. This means that you might eat more/less often than 2MAD. As I said in comments above, not eating dairy at first could be a good idea.

If you enjoy and feel good with fattier meat, then go ahead and eat that. If you like and feel good with eggs, go ahead and add them in. I do recommend that you prioritize meat from ruminant animals (beef, venison, goat, lamb).

When you are first starting and do not know how big to make your plates, try starting with one pound of meat for a meal, salt to taste. Add a couple of eggs if you want Wait about 45-60 minutes after to determine if you need to have more.

It will take a week or two to get the hang of it, and not every day will be the same.

I think that watching and reading Kelly Hogan’s materials will appeal to you. She has been carnivore for about 10 years, and started out being very overweight and in pain. She is very good at explaining how she decides how big/small and how fatty to make her meals. She also preaches that fasting is not necessary to be successful.