New to carnivore but not to keto, hypoglycemia has gotten worse

(l) #1

Hi. Found this forum today and hope it’s okay to ask here. Searched some beforehand and found some information.
TL;DR: Symptoms resembling hypoglycemia a short while into strict carnivore. Was on strict keto for almost 3 years before this and my hypoglycemia was better from it. Potassium problem, or something else?

I’m 16 days into carnivore after being on strict keto for almost 3 years(5-10g of carbs per day and as little processed stuff as possible). 95% of my meals are beef in bone broth (and plenty of iodized salt), while the rest is pork and fatty fish. I also add additional tallow just to make sure I get enough fat. I don’t eat any dairy, eggs etc. Just meat, animal fat, salt, pepper and water.

Started this diet because of autoimmune/endocrine disease that keeps getting progressively worse and running out of options. Since a few days I experience something similar to the hypoglycemia I’ve had in the past. I make sure to eat whenever I’m hungry and to rather eat a little too much than too little. No diabetes or overweight. The symptoms I’m having now is weakness, shakiness, nausea, feeling like I’ll throw up when too hungry, a lot of growling in my stomach and hunger even though I’ve eaten very recently.
I drink a lot of water and take a magnesium with calcium supplement.

Wondering if it’s likely I’m doing something wrong with the way I’m currently eating and if anyone here has advice on what to change. I thought I’d just try and wait it out, but if it is hypoglycemia I probably shouldn’t push it too far for too long. I also suspect it might not be keto flu (or if it is, not too extreme) since I was already doing well on strict keto right before switching to this.
I read potassium helps store sugar and wonder if I’m low on that. I thought all the bone broth I’m eating would be enough, but maybe not. I also don’t want to accidentally get too much potassium if that’s not the issue and I start taking supplements of it.

Thanks in advance, and sorry for the w.o.t.

(KM) #2

How thin are you, and is it possible you are under eating? I have had those symptoms during period where I was definitely underweight and more or less starving myself, years ago.

(Edith) #3

I did a carnivore trial several years ago and started it after I had been keto for several years already, similar to you. I was amazed that even though I was already keto, I still went through an adaptation phase when I switched to carnivore. I definitely had digestive issues when I made the switch. I also had to make sure I got enough salt. Do you know exactly how much salt you are getting each day? Getting enough salt helps keep potassium in balance. It is possible you are not getting enough sodium. I would suggest taking in an extra teaspoon or two each day and see how you feel. The worst that can happen is you get a little bloated and then you will know you need to back off.

Another thing to consider: approximately two weeks after stopping all oxalate containing food (fruits, vegetables, and nuts especially) is about the time oxalate dumping symptoms begin. Going carnivore is the ultimate low oxalate diet. You may want to research oxalates and oxalate dumping to see if that fits with any of the symptoms you are experiencing.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #4

Theoretically, hypoglycaemia should not be happening on a carnivore diet, since we should be producing enough ketones to keep the brain fed at all times.

However, a couple of questions: Are you eating enough? Are you eating often enough? Don’t restrict calories, and don’t worry about how many times a day you are eating. Most carvnivores seem to fall into a pattern of eating three meals a day (interestingly, I am now finding I want a morning meal again, now that I’m carnivore, after years of doing keto and wanting only two meals a day).

Another thought it that you could possibly be glucagon-resistant. Prof. Bikman says that it’s extremely rare, but some people do have that problem. Since it’s glucacon that stimulates gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis in the liver, a problem with glucagon could indeed cause hypoglycaemia.

The other suggestions in this thread are also important to check out.

(l) #5

I’m 60-62 kg (fluctuates a bit between those since I started carnivore), which I think is around 135 lbs, and 163 cm (5’3?). It’s my “normal” weight.
I try to make sure I don’t undereat and often eat a little more when I start to feel full just to make sure I don’t lose weight while doing this. After most meals I do feel full, but still have to eat shortly after again.
It does seem like I’m hungry more than I should be with the amount I’m eating, but I’m not sure.

(l) #6

That is good to know that maybe the body still goes through a pretty dramatic adaptation phase. Did you also do a very strict keto before it?
I do use a bunch of salt but I haven’t measured how much, mostly because when I read they tend to recommend to salt to taste on carnivore and that when it starts tasting gross is when it’s enough/too much. I add plenty to every meal and always a pinch to my water as well.

Thank you for the suggestion, I read up on oxalate dumping and some of it does fit what I’m experiencing, but not all of it, for example I don’t experience any cramps. I read it should go away after a few days (?). I think this has been going on for about a week now and so far it almost feels like it’s getting worse rather than improving. But maybe that is normal while adapting.

I also take pretty high amounts of non-acidic vitamin c usually for a separate medical condition, and have just read that it can be converted into oxalates in the body, which maybe isn’t very good in my current situation. Not sure if I should maybe decrease/remove the vitamin c as I’m concerned it will worsen my other condition over time if I do. Am a little concerned of kidney stones as well if I continue to consume high doses of vitamin c on this diet. The past two weeks I have not taken the vitamin c though, so I don’t think it’s necessarily contributing to these specific symptoms.

(l) #7

I really try to eat enough, but it’s hard to say. I don’t cook myself (bedridden) so haven’t been able to measure as exactly as I would like. I try to always eat a little too much rather than the other way around, but still feel really hungry just 1-2 hours later.
My weight seems to stay the same so far, which I thought could be a good indication I’m eating enough. Right now I’m eating every third hour or more at least, so I’m hoping that changes with time and that this insane hunger along with the other symptoms is temporary.

I’ve never heard of glucagon-resistance, I will read up on this. Thank you! I am just unsure why my hypoglycemia seemed to get much better on keto, and now on carnivore it seems worse, unless it is not that. To me it seemed logical that it would also do as well or better on carnivore.
Edit: I had heard of this, but didn’t know that was the english term for it. I didn’t know it was rare. When starting out on keto years ago for the sake of a tumor, I remember reading that some cautioned to not eat too much protein as this could “ruin” the ketone levels. Maybe that is what’s happening. I haven’t measured yet, but will do it as soon as possible. Maybe it can give me an indication of whether that is what’s going on or not.

Apologies if my wording isn’t great, my first language isn’t english and not used to discuss this specific subject in english.

(Edith) #8

Yes, which is why I was so surprised I went through an adaptation phase. It was a little like when I started keto, but not quite as severe.

Not everyone experiences all the symptoms of oxalate dumping. Also, the duration depends upon your load. You can also experience intermittent dumping for several years. Again, it depends upon your load.

I had some terrible oxalate dumping during my seven month carnivore trial. It was very uncomfortable and sometimes painful, but in the long run it was good. I tried carnivore to see if it would help with joint issues I was having. I believe it did and most likely because I dumped oxalate.

I don’t know what to say about your vitamin C since you said you were taking it for a health issue. Carnivore did not work out for me. My body is much happier on keto. I actually think part of the trouble was my body needed vitamin C. The little bit I get from the fruit and veggies I added back in seems to be enough. If you do think you could be oxalate dumping after all, I would at least cut back on the vitamin C. It’s been a while, but the Trying Low Oxalate Facebook group (a very research oriented/science based group) I think suggests no more than 250 mg/day.

(l) #10

I took high doses (5-6 grams per day) because of low grade cancer. I figured it couldn’t hurt at the time and was worth a try. The tumor did get smaller, but I don’t know what to attribute it to. The only changes I made was keto, high amounts of vitamin c and a few other basic supplements. It’s why I’m very hesitant to stop doing the stuff that might have worked. At the same time I’m not doing carnivore for the sake of the tumor, so maybe it’s worth a temporary compromise.

I think I agree with you that decreasing the dose for now might be a good idea, just to see if this gets better. Will also look up the Facebook group and see what they have to say about it.
Appreciate the help.

(l) #11

I have now read that slowly phasing out oxalates could prevent more dramatic oxalate dumping symptoms. I am wondering if I should reintroduce something because of this, or simply continue with some amounts of vitamin c. I find this very difficult to navigate since I don’t know how much of a problem it is or will be, or for how long I should be doing that since it can apparently take a very long time.
More off topic, but honestly worried about kidney stones after reading more about oxalates. It seems I have also been eating much of the high oxalate foods the 3 years I was on keto, like dark chocolate, spinach, broccoli, along with the high dose of vitamin c, etc.

#12

I always ate every 3 hours on keto. Then came carnivore and I had to eat every hour sometimes (only 5 times though so my eating window still wasn’t very big)… It happens when I get satiated way too quickly with way little food so I actually need 5 meals to get enough nutrients.

Ketoers often talk about several hours between meals but some of us just doesn’t work that way. I almost never get stomach growls and never that early but that’s me.

How much do you eat? I can imagine you don’t see weight changes yet but your body still want more food. I read such stories before.
Whatever the case is, if you get hungry, eat. If you can, of course we aren’t all lucky enough to eat any time and even if we are, it’s inconvenient to eat every 1-2 hours, I hate those days. If i really want to avoid them, I probably can but it takes a lot of variety - and all my tips would involve dairy or eggs or processed meats so they don’t suit you. But even meat offers variety, not all kind satiates us the same… Maybe you should eat less satiating meats to eat enough per meal? I don’t know but looking at my own case, it’s possible. If I chose my top satiating meats, it probably would have been quite hard to avoid eating many small meals, they are just too effective (and I get bored of them easily too).

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #13

This is a good plan. On keto, I found that too little salt caused headaches and constipation, too much caused problems at the other end of the spectrum. On carnivore, I find I am much more sensitive to salt, and don’t want nearly as much. That can lead to some constipation, but the solution to constipation seems to be increasing my fat intake.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #14

Be sure to eat plenty of fat, while ensuring you get enough protein. People’s protein needs seem to vary wildly, at least according to the studies of nitrogen loss that were used to set the RDA for protein. You could possibly be one of the people who need more than others. There are researchers who believe we have an instinct for how much protein to eat, so try to listen to your body. Anthony Chaffee, a neurosurgeon in Australia who is also a carnivore, says the best guide is to eat the meat, if it tastes good, and to stop only when it stops tasting good. I find this a better guide than trying to figure out whether I’m really hungry or not.

It may be that a keto diet is what you should stick with, if you could resolve the problems that led you to carnivore. But remember, it’s early days yet as a carnivore, and things may very well look quite differnt in a month or two. Try not to give up too soon, unless it’s clearly not working.

That was an old, out-dated speculation. The real situation is far more nuanced. Yes, the liver makes glucose out of protein, but it’s a well-regulated process, and not determined by how much protein we eat. A more likely possible problem is proteinuria, a high level of amino acids in the urine, which may or may not be a problem for the kidneys (people have opinions, but there seems to be little solid data). Unlike fatty acids or glucose, amino acids cannot be stored in the body, except as tissues and various other proteins. There is a very limited labile pool, and its capacity is easily exceeded.

Not a problem; I’d have the same trouble if i tried to use my French or Spanish to talk about this stuff, lol!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #15

Sally K. Norton’s Web site has a lot of information about this, if you haven’t found it already. Apparently the rate of dumping can be controlled by judicious consumption of carbohydrates that contain oxalates. You want the body to excrete the oxalates, but not at a rate that causes serious damage.

(l) #16

On keto I would usually go between 3-4 hours between each meal.
I find it hard to know the exact amount I eat now since I don’t prepare the food myself, but my guess is anywhere between 550-700 grams of meat (beef mostly) in a day, but then I add fat to that as well in the form of bone broth and tallow. My guess is there’s around half a decilitre of bonebroth in one meal. Not sure about the tallow honestly, maybe a tablespoon?
I’m not sure if that’s considered too little or a lot considering my size and level of physical activity, but I am more or less completely physically inactive.

I’m wondering if I should increase the fat even more and eat less protein. I don’t think I am able to eat more meat while also increasing my fat intake at the moment as I feel full from my current amount. Am a bit hesitant to increase protein because of several reasons, like ketone levels, risk of kidney stones and reading that people with autoimmune disease should focus on high fat intake. Maybe the first two aren’t reasonable to worry about, though.

I agree it’s pretty inconvenient to get hungry so often. I guess my biggest concern is if something isn’t right so that it becomes unhealthy. I can deal with the inconvenience if it ends up helping my health, though.

#17

I never would accept the inconvenience but it’s not my normal to eat many times anyway so that is sigh of a mistake I made. I naturally have bigger meals (I don’t call a meal big below 2000 kcal) especially for my first meal so having tiny ones is disconcerting. But I understand and agree, health should have top priority!

Eating fattier may worth a shot but I wouldn’t lower my protein much from this amount. I often have the same amount of meat, few to several eggs and some dairy… I do need high protein though, I can’t possibly know your needs… Hence many of us experiment to find our individual sweet spot.

(l) #18

I measured my ketone levels this morning and was at 1.6, which I guess isn’t terrible. I was usually at 3 or a little under that on keto.

Unsure if I am getting enough fat to be honest. I haven’t been able to measure exactly, but will try to do that.
I have been concerned I get too much protein. I might be, but it’s good to hear that it seems to vary and that I can potentially trust to just eat what I feel like.
I usually don’t go back on these kinds of things and try to wait it out, but yesterday I was considering it just because the concern for kidney stones in my current situation became slightly overwhelming. My high vitamin c intake over the past 3 years became a concern as well.

I did read about proteinuria, which didn’t help my worry regarding kidney stones, lol. I was considering buying a urine test so I could keep an eye on this.
I did indeed find out about Sally Norton, I was going to watch a video where she is speaking today.
Regarding consuming carbs to mitigate the oxalate issue, do you think it’s possible I can take my vitamin c supplement instead of adding carbs, since it’s supposed to be converted into oxalates? I would prefer this if it has a similar benefit as I would like to avoid carbs but really wanted to keep taking the vitamin c, without necessarily increasing the risk for kidney stones.

(l) #19

I understand, that makes sense. Maybe I should try to up my fat intake. It’s possible I could just take extra fat on it’s own in between meals and see if that changes anything.
Thank you!

(Bob M) #20

I was listening to a podcast with Jimmy Moore, where a doctor was putting him on all these tweaks. He went on a PSMF (protein-sparing modified fast, basically low calorie, higher protein) and went hypoglycemic. One theory was poor glucagon response, although there were other theories.

But then he went on a very high fat diet, and got even worse hypoglycemia.

So, you’re going to have to test it.

(Edith) #21

I don’t know. I’ve never seen that mentioned in the Trying Low Oxalate group, but I haven’t been on it for quite some time. If you decide to join it, you can always post that question. They also have a search function where you can search through the posts pertaining to vitamin C. The moderators of the group are dieticians and researchers. Like I said, it it very science based. There is even a carnivore subgroup you can join.

They discuss certain vitamins and minerals you can take to ease dumping. And yes, it is suggested in the carnivore group to ingest a small amount of oxalate to slow the dumping. Drinking some black tea is one of the suggestions if you don’t want to eat anything with carbs.