New Guy Needs Advice

(bob) #1

Hi Everyone, I’ve done low carb before but a few months ago I decided to try maintaining ketosis. I’m hoping to drop some belly fat and reset my metabolism. It took a while to get my glu/ket index to stay below 6 all day. I had to drop my protein below 100 and add a lot of fat to get there. I’m concerned about the lack of protein. Short term I’ve got a knee replacement coming up and I want enough to heal fast. Beyond that I’m active, lift weights and don’t want to lose muscle. I seem to be boxed into low protein or no ketosis. Thoughts? Ideas? Advice??

Thanks!

(Cathy) #2

100 g of protein (such as chicken) is almost a pound. That seems like a good amount for most. Here is an example of the different amounts of protein provided in various meat…

Top High-Protein Meats (Approx. Protein per 100g cooked)

  • Chicken Breast (skinless): ~31g

  • Turkey Breast (skinless): ~29g

  • Venison (Deer): ~30g

  • Bison: ~28-30g

  • Lean Beef (e.g., sirloin): ~21-25g

  • Pork Loin/Tenderloin: ~24g

It can be confusing.

(Bob M) #3

Why do you want glucose/ketones to be below 6? If you have 1 mmol/l of ketones, that allows you to have 6mmol/l (6x18=108 in US units) blood sugar.

There’s no real relationship between ketones and much of anything, unless you have mental challenges (depression, bipolar, etc.) or cancer, both of which are where higher ketones can be better. Some people think that higher ketones = less hunger, but that’s tough to decode. Normally, when I have high ketones, I’m fasting a while, which means things like hormones could cause lack of hunger, and not ketones.

Personally, I tend to like less fatty meats.

(bob) #4

Well Bob, I’m not really sure. When I started this I read that GKI was a good indicator of insulin resistance. Excess insulin is apparently very bad. The theory was that low GKI allows the body to burn internal fats and clean itself out. I bought Dr. Boz’s book and she advocates that ketosis (GKI<6 or even <3) helps restore hormonal balance and has all kind of benefits.
I also like more meat and less fat. I’m not diabetic and have no mental cancer issues.
Thoughts?

#5

My question is the same as Bob’s. I never had these data (ketones, glucose) for myself but my goal is feeling right (my body gives me great feedback) and for that, I need low (plant net) carb and high protein. I would starve with 100g protein, it’s so very tiny food too but that’s less important than satiation. I figured my body needs high protein so it gets it.
I can’t possibly know what your body needs but I don’t think higher protein keeps one from healing under normal circumstances.

(bob) #6

I’ve been low carb/high protein for a long time. No special diet, it just feels good. As I’ve gotten older I’ve had several significant injuries and my health has declined while bellyfat has done the opposite. I read Dr. Boz’s book and did some research.
There is a community that advocates for a low GKI. The theory seems to be that insulin resistance causes fat and toxins to build up internally. Maintaining ketosis (GKI<6 or even <3) will supposidly allow the
body to clean out the stored fats and restore metabolic and hormonal health.
That’s how I understand it anyway. So I’ve been doing this for a few months now and it appears that maintaining ketosis (for me, right now) means skimping on protein.
Shinta - I agree. Actually I think elevated protein is essential for healing.
Bob - I’m not diabetic, no mental or cancer issues (thankfully!)
I think what this boils down to is whether ketosis is beneficial in some way.
You both seem to be questioning that??

#7

No, I just don’t think high protein keeps me (and so many others, probably most people) from ketosis. According to my experiences (I don’t fully KNOW, it’s just a very very strong hint, if it wasn’t ketosis and fat adaptation, I can’t imagine what it was and I always ate high protein as I can’t not to) it’s all about net carbs for me. I never even understood why the carnivore diet wouldn’t be ketogenic but I never went into that as my body is elated if I just keep my plant carbs really low and it’s not like I can stop eating much protein anyway. I am aware it’s not nearly this simple for everyone.
Actually, I don’t care about ketosis itself, just feeling right and being healthy. What seems best to me, happens to be keto but just keto isn’t enough. I suppose it’s true for everyone, not all keto styles work for us but some manages to do their keto right from the beginning.

(Edith) #8

I may be on your side in this discussion, based mostly upon my one anecdotal observation and one clinical.

Clinical: The Paleolithic Ketogenic Diet promoted by PaleoMedicin, keeps daily food intake low (somewhere around 0.6 kg of meat a day) which means protein intake is also pretty low. They prescribe this to keep people in therapeutic ketosis which means higher ketones than those of us doing more of a “nutritional ketosis” as coined by Dr. Stephen Phinney.

Anecdotal: For the first few years I started eating this way, I tracked my morning ketones and blood sugar daily. I did notice that in the mornings, my morning blood glucose trended lower, and ketones higher when I ate less protein and more fat. The problem for me was that having lower protein resulted in more hunger. Since I don’t have metabolic disorder or some other health problem requiring therapeutic levels of ketones, I’d rather have the extra protein.

Also, continuing with my own anecdote, I did find, however, that my hair and fingernails did not like the lower amount of protein. About two years ago, I got into strength training, and upped my protein intake to about 120 g per day. My hair health and fingernail health improved dramatically. I’m vain; I’ll take a much nicer head of hair and lower ketones.

(B Creighton) #9

A couple of things.
First, it sounds like your are starting off with some insulin resistance, which is why you can’t get your index below 6. That will improve with time as you lose fat, but you can probably enhance by supplementing with some TMG and/or creatine every day. I think it is the extra fat pushing down the glucose, but personally I think that may only slow the fat loss, because first you are burning off the fat you are eating rather than your stored fat.
Second, don’t worry too much about the protein now, unless you are trying to build muscle - You don’t really store protein anywhere, so it’s not like eating more protein now will help you recover from knee surgery faster. After the surgery, simply eat more protein. I personally don’t worry about my ketone levels too much. When I do Keto(like right now) I eat high protein, and typically moderate fat. I will notice more ketones after a fatty breakfast, but otherwise my ketones don’t go much above 1. I don’t go after fatty foods on purpose - except for a chocolate fat bomb I eat on MWF afternoons - but the fat in that is to make GABA palatable, and the raw cacao powder palatable as well… it’s a lot like fudge. Quite simply I go after high protein foods, and simply end up consuming the natural fat which comes with them. That keeps me satiated and happy.

(bob) #10

I agree. After thinking this through the real question is whether I’m aiming for deep ketosis at any cost or a longer slower approach that supports my lifestyle. I feel best when I eat low carb, high protein and moderate fat. Since I’m not attacking cancer, I’ve decided to focus on meat, cheese, nuts and greens which are my favorite foods anyway. The ketosis journey taught me a lot and OMAD has given me the confidence to control my eating in a whole new way.

(Jane) #11

I think this is a wise approach. I lost 40 lbs by only tracking carbs and it was slow enough I didn’t gain any back until Covid hit (almost 3 years later). Almost all extra fat I gained is gone now as I doubled-down on limiting my carbs andthre in some fasting days.

I ate protein and fat to satiety and only measured ketones when I was fasting because it was interesting to me.

Ketones vary a lot from what I have seen. My last 3-day fast I had lower ketones on day 3 than day 2 with only drinking black coffee with a small splash of cream. That is not typical for me - usually my ketones are higher on day 3 but I didn’t sweat it and trusted the process.

Seveal years ago I had a glucose “spike” (small but noticeable) on day 3 without any carbs for 3 days so I guess my body decided I needed it and produced it.

(John) #12

Do you have to drop protein below 100 grams per day or just per meal? While I haven’t measured ketones doing so, I know that it takes a bolus of about 75 grams or so to raise my BG much. What happens if you spread your protein out? I’m zero carb and eat up to 160 grams of protein and at least that much fat but usually more, FWIW.