Net carbs versus total carbs what's the daily limit please

(Jan) #1

I’m rejoining after 4 years.
Please explain how to figure out from the package. Thank you.

(Liz ) #2

Hi, are you in America? I know labels are different in every country. In America you can see total carbs broken out into sugars and fiber. To get net carbs subtract the fiber from the total or just look at the sugars. It gets fuzzy at sugar alcohols. They usually don’t count toward total carbs but some folks have trouble with them.

Edited to add: a lot of people count 20 net carbs to get and stay in ketosis. If they have issues they count total carbs and keep it under 20 total.

(Jan) #3

Thank you.
Yes l’m in the U.S.

(Robin) #4

I never deduct the fiber from total carb. In fact, I round up the total carb. I don’t trust labels, they tend to fudge the numbers. So I error on the side of caution.

(Geoffrey) #5

Yep, they are allowed to cheat on the labels.

(Alec) #6

I would argue that if it is in a package and has an ingredients list it is not keto. My advice is eat fatty meat and eggs, and if you need to, a small quantity of above ground veg. Personal preference is just the fatty meat and eggs.

(Brian) #7

I tend to agree with those who are suggesting that anything in a “package” is maybe not the best choice.

Some kind of meat that’s just meat is usually where my meals start. Could be a steak, could be a chop, could be a roast, could be hamburger, could be a fillet of fish, could be a piece of chicken. (I’m a fan of both crock pot and sous vide.) Eggs are always a winner here. Butter is great for both flavor enhancing and a little extra fat if the meat is on the lean side.

Starting there is helpful here because there are almost no carbs in any of that and it’s where I’ll get the bulk of my eating. If I wanna add a low-carb veg, I can, or not. If I do, it’s pretty much something I’ve grown myself, not bought at the store, so I know where it came from and I know there’s nothing added to it.

Google is your friend when getting going with all of this because you can easily look up most any food and ask “how many carbs”. If you’re getting up to 40g or 50g or more of carbs a day when adding things up, it’s probably time to take an honest look at the food choices. Yeah, I know what it feels like when you WANT that Mountain Dew or sweet tea. T’ain’t easy. Maybe some lemon in the water will get you through. And that Tastycake that’s calling… maybe a hard boiled egg will satisfy the craving.

Anyway, best of luck. The first week or so is usually the hardest getting back on track. You can do it.

(Cathy) #8

There is a theory that not everyone absorbs fiber in the same way and that is because of our very different gut biome. The doctor (can’t think of his name) who touted the deducting fiber theory eventually said he regretted doing so because it’s so individual and the best approach is to not do that.

It will be a ‘your milage may vary’ kind of thing. Personally I do deduct fiber from certain foods like avocado and some baking ingredients. You will have to make those judgement calls as you progress.

(KM) #9

There’s always the MO of flipping this on its head. It’s possible to start with beef, salt and water, and then add in carefully curated things with an appropriate profile, rather than trying to recreate a wildly varied SAD diet without the carbs that has you constantly tracking or guessing. I think the entire list of my pantry is probably 50 things, perhaps less - 20 staples like salt or coffee or butter, and then perhaps 30 revolving organic / pastured ingredients (various meat proteins, cheeses, eggs, some greens and berries, the occasional nut etc.)

#10

I track both because I respect both sides of the argument and others are correct that it is definitely dependent on each individual as to which is the best way to do it.

I’ve been lucky and can lose weight and get healthy with the basic Keto diet approach. I track both net carbs and total carbs. For net carbs I deduct all listed fiber from the total carbs and I sometimes deduct sugar alcohols too because they don’t negatively impact my ketosis. I keep my net carbs below 16g/day. But I also track my total carbs and ensure I don’t often go over 40g/day, only on occasion. Some days I’m lucky and I just happen to have less than 20 total carbs, but that’s rare because I regularly use erythritol/allulose/stevia/monk fruit. I don’t touch any sweetener that is higher than a 1 on the glycemic index. They get deducted for net carbs, but they all still have some carbs that go towards total carbs. Usually it’s 4 carbs per teaspoon, which is why I easily can have 8-16 carbs per day from them. Since I’m traditional Keto and eat vegetables, staying under 20 total carbs a day is near impossible for me if I also use my sugar substitutes.

Still, I lose weight and get all the improvements to my health in spite of using those particular sweeteners. That’s why I track both kinds of carbs, deduct fiber and sugar alcohols, and allow higher total carbs.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #11

Challenge accepted!

First, the carb limit we recommend here is 20 g of carbohydrate a day. It’s your choice whether to count total carbs or net carbs. Drs. Phinney and Westman recommend 20 g total. Dr. Westman even goes so far as to call that “prescription-strength” keto.

The story going around when I first joined these forums was that Richard really wanted to recommend eating no carbs at all, but was afraid that would scare people away. So he followed the doctors in recommending 20 g/day as a limit that would guarantee success to everyone but the most insulin-resistant, who will need a lower limit of carb intake.

Second, how you figure this out from nutrition labels depends on where you live. In North America, nutrition labels list total carbohydrate content and the amount of fibre. To get total carbs is therefore easy, and to calculate net carbs, you subtract fibre from the total. In the rest of the world, it’s the reverse: nutrition labels list net carbs and fibre, so getting net carbs is dead easy, and to get total carbs you add the net and the fibre. Does that make sense?

Third point: the easiest method of limiting carbohydrate is to avoid all sugar, starches, and grains. Eat only vegetables that grow above ground, primarily leafy greens and cruciferous vegetables. They contain more fibre and less digestible carbohydrate, so they are easy to incorporate into a ketogenic diet. Fruits are generally to be avoided, although there are some fruits that work on a keto diet, if one doesn’t over-indulge. Ditto for nuts.

Lastly, if sugar doesn’t appear on the nutrition panel, but does appear in the list of ingredients, then avoid that product. They have fiddled with the serving size, and American law deliberately lets them get away with that.

(Jan) #12

But…is that net carbs or total carbs?

#13

I think he is stating that it is each person’s personal choice whether a 20g carb limit per day is “net” or “total.” Paul’s explanation is really good as to why.

We each have to choose for ourselves by finding out what our own personal body does with carbs. Some people are more sensitive than others and that’s why limiting their “total” carbs to 20g/day sets them up for success. It really is a “prescription strength” for this diet. I even go to that on rare occasion to reset my body.

But then others like me can do well with 40-50g “total” carbs per day as long as I keep my “net” carbs below 20g (actually my personal threshold is 16g, and yes I had months of fiddling and testing to discover this about myself.) There is no one size fits all levels/limits. If anyone tries to enforce that on you I’d be wary. It’s very, very personal based on our physical makeup and pre-existing medical conditions, etc etc.

Fiber is usually not impacting for most people, so deducting it from “total” carbs in America is what gives you “net” carbs. But there are enough people who react to fiber in a way that interferes with ketosis, and for those individuals they have to dial down “total” carbs including fiber to no more than 20/day, and some even less.

So when speaking of a universal limit, what Paul is saying is the founders of this forum did their best to find a threshold that had the most benefit of success for most people. Keeping “total” carbs below 20g/day is going to be successful for just about anyone, sans a few difficult systems. But they also acknowledge that success can be had for many by tracking “net” carbs to 20g/day.

Possibly it is wiser to recommend limiting “total” carbs to 20g/day from the start, especially for those with multiple or significant health issues. But as you benefit you can always start to slowly up your “total” carbs per day and start tracking your net as the 20g and see how your benefits hold.

However, I have seen way too many people give up too soon on this diet who would have benefitted greatly had they stuck with it. They gave up because it can be extremely difficult to stick to 20g/day “total” carbs coming from a SAD diet. I personally recommend to others to start with tracking net carbs (carbs less fiber) and limit those to 20d/day, but keeping total carbs coming from healthy, high fiber sources under 50g/day. That helps ease them into learning this diet with less frustration, and then as things evolve they can adjust both “net” and “total” depending on what they discover about their bodies and whether or not they are losing the weight or gaining the improved health they need. That’s how I approached the diet. My first month I kept my total carbs to 50-75g/day but my net carbs to 20g/day. My second month I reduced “total” carbs to no more than 50g/day. It gave me time to adjust without feeling like it was next to impossible to do. By my third and fourth month I learned my weight loss was most notable when I kept my total carbs below 40g/day. And by month six I adjusted my net carbs to no more than 16g/day. It was far easier to do that after I had already been on a more generous Keto diet for a few months and learned the ropes (and recipes :joy:.) I never would have stuck with it had I limited myself to 20g total carbs a day from the start. But I had time. I had significant health issues but they weren’t urgently critical. I gave myself longer goals of 6 months, 1 year, and 2 years. I had the luxury to take it slowly. Those who also have time but are in a rush and don’t have patience would need to definitely limit their carbs to 20g/day TOTAL carbs from the get-go or they will not see benefits soon enough to keep them engaged.

It’s now been 2-1/2 years and this is my way of life for the rest of my life. I love it. I love all my meals and food and my new revived and healed health.

Net vs total depends on your personal health and body composition and you have to discover your personal limits for both. Whether you limit to 20g “total” per day or 20g “net” depends on your health urgencies, what kind of person you are, and what you know to be true of how you think and approach things.

(KM) #14

I would second everything that @PaulL and @Just_Juju said, but also add that there is a lot of marketing for what I call “magic keto” foods. Processed, manufactured foods that have been altered in some way to contain a startlingly low number of carbs, like keto bread, keto ice cream and keto tortillas.

I am suspicious of these foods, they don’t seem to work well for me as far as ketosis is concerned. This again is probably a very individual thing, but be extra aware of specific products claiming a much lower carb content than expected until you know how they affect you.