Net Carbs - should it be on veggies only?

(J DAKIC) #1

Hi everyone,
I apologise if this has already been asked and answered (I did search other newby topics and could not find this specific question answered so hoping I am not doubling up).

Should I be countil all carbs or just net carbs or all carbs for some foods and net carbs for other foods?

I see a lot of arguments in various keto forums if one should calculate total carbs or net carbs towards the 20g daily allowance and also of using Net if that should be on veggies only or on everything.
I started Keto way of eating 6 weeks ago and was struggling as love my veggies and love my dairy but got the numbers right and started to loose weight (have a lot to lose and suffer from PCOS, not diabetic but am on Metformin to control my insulin resisitance and also recovering from battle with a very agressive breast cancer which took up the most of last year and am now on crazy hormone suppressants that that make one stack weigh and especially visceral fat).
Sorry for the long medical history but figured may as well add this in so it explains both my desperation to lose weight as my body tends to react weirdly to weightloss attempts but also the necessity for me to get this right finally.

I finally started to drop weight after severely limiting carbs but at the same time was dealing with massive cravings for veggies and almost constantly felt nauseated from all the protein I was consuming.

My Dr got me to stop these restrictions 2 weeks ago and add more veggies to the diet and reduce protein and fats but the weightloss stopped completely.

I have Cardiologist’s blessing now to resume keto and am restarting it today and really want to get it right but hoping to get better outcomes than 1st time arround and avoid veggie cravings and feeling of nausea.

So I am hoping you can help advise about the total vs net carbs dillema and if I should be using total or net carbs and if net if that should be just on veggies or everything.

Also, having been reading a lot on how to determine macros I believe I was put on wrong macros when I was starting out as was advised for my height and age and necessary weightloss (176cm, 46yo and need to lose 40kg) taking my insulin resisitance and medical profile I should be on 128p/70-80f/20c.
However all the literature I could find points to my protein definitely needing to be under 100g so forcing myself to eat 128g daily would explain my feeling as nauseated as I was.

I guess now that I know how to tweak my protein intake if I could get my carb macros right I should be set to restart and get this right.

Sorry about my post being this long and thank you in advance for your advice :grinning:

(KB Keto) #2

20 net carbs (*20 is not a magic number but a good number people have had success with) a day. Majority of those carbs should be from green leafies, nuts, and incidental (but add up) carbs found in keto foods.

There are carbs in heavy whipping cream, cream cheese, and many other fat staples. Think about this. An avocado had 12 carbs but 10 of fiber… And avocados are a staple is many people’s keto diets.

My numbers today. 36 total carbs, 21g of fiber… 95g protein and 261g of fat.

(J DAKIC) #3

Thank you :slight_smile:

I have had weightloss success sticking to 20g of carbs so I guess I should try to stick to it regardless of my body craving more veggies seeing I really need to shift this weight and have been thrown out of ketosis these past 2 weeks. Will try to do net carbs on veggies and count complete carbs on anything else

It is good to know that even if going a bit over 20 will not completely derail the effort once I manage to get there :slight_smile:

It was just so hard getting it right the 1st time arround and took several weeks until I actually hit ketosis. I so wish I did not listen to the Dr and his Dietitian …

I have just spent this last hour reading the fasting threads and am starting to think that maybe fasting may be an answer for me getting my body to listen to what I need it to do and get the weightloss on track as well as stop me obsessing over veggies.

In my mind at least it sounds logical that maybe just fasting for 24hrs or so and not eating or drinking anytjing but water may help reboot my system and stop this veggie based obsession.

I have always thought that water only fasting for 24hr muchless more would be detrimental to health thus seeing how many people do fast and are in fact benefiting from it is such a relief as when I was on keto there were so many days I felt like not eating and had to force myself to get the food down.

I am thinking that apart from ensuring I stick to keto foods and limiting those carbs I should simply listen to my body more and if it says it is not interested in eating I will simply let it be and ignore meal times and stick to just water (or coffee :wink: ) intil the next meal was due.
With any luck it breaks my food obsessed chain of thoughts :wink:

(KB Keto) #4

It also depends on what veggies you are eating. Knowing the net carbs of food by using a tracker online helps a lot. You really have to make an effort to eat too much spinach and bust your carb numbers, but carrots on the other hand are not great for keto.

I would also be cautious about when you start a fast. If you arent in ketosis and on your way to becoming fat adapted, the benefits of a fast are not nearly as great.

Focus on eating around 20g net carbs, keeping your protein under 90g a day and then filling the rest with fats until full. Many people make mistakes with too much protein or not enough fat early in their keto and they never reach their goals because of it.

(John) #5

The point is that sugar raises your insulin, but sugar alcohols and dietary fiber does not. It doesn’t matter whether the sugar was in a snickers or a carrot, your insulin responds the same and you would count it the same.

(J DAKIC) #6

I use MFP and USDA entries to teack it and yes, my favourite veggies are killing me :see_no_evil::hear_no_evil::speak_no_evil:.
My favourite salads are arugula with tomato onion cucumber and capsicum and the 3 out of those 5 veggies are significant carb coint veggies when trying to stick to just 20g and were causing me.major cravings 1st time arround but I guess I will just have to suck it up :wink:

(J DAKIC) #7

I know that carbs are carbs - I guess I just have to get on with it, stick to my 20g and stop trying to find ways to have that extra tomato :wink:

(Siobhan) #8

Hi - the nausea you were experiencing may have been due to excess protein. The keto in one sentence summed it up as “replace carbs with fat”. In other words: You should be sticking to under 20g net carbs (or total if that works better with your body) regardless of where the food is coming from. Some people do better with total carbs but if you are losing on net carbs just do that - you can always tweak later.

1-1.5g protein per kg of lean body mass. Too much protein and not enough fat can cause nausea… especially if you are forcing yourself to eat more than what your body actually needs.

Lastly, fat to satiety. Do not force yourself to eat, or restrict if still hungry. With the 2 previous entries in mind add fat to your meals until you remain satisfied until the next one and dont feel the need to snack out of hunger. You are using fat for energy, so this will make up the bulk of your grams per day.

Try that for a while and see where you end up.
Dont forget lots of water (dont force down water though…) and salt!

(J DAKIC) #9

THANK YOU :two_hearts:

You have got it spot on. I felt comfortable when I would reach 90g of protein in a day to be honest fats arround 40g and net carbs arround 20 to 23g but the coach I used insisited that I HAD to eat 128g of protein and at least 70g of fat or I would not be loosing any weigh. And she was adamant she had the numbers right and everyone in this forum she had me join was insisiting that was the case.

I so get that was wrong for me. My lean body mass would be 65kg to 70kg for my height. 70kg probably more suited for my age so going forward I am planning to stick to arround 90g protein and if I eat less than that and feel comfortable then so be it. I am so not going to force myself to eat more protein.

Net carbs in 20g I can do as did it before and I dealt with my cravings for fresh veggies before so can do it again :+1:

Do you mind if I ask if I need to worry about fat numbers or purely listen to my body. Only asking as previously 40g was what felt natural and I pushed myself past that.

I have an extremely sedentery lifestyle right now due to several back and leg injuries and post cancer meds I am on that cause walking to be painfull so I suspect that and high protein were the reason why I really did not need fats.

When I drop the protein I suspect I will be eating more fat and as of next week am allowed to start light exercise (walking in a pool) so expect that will increase the need for calories so bound to be needing fat to go past 40g to feel satiated.

Having said that, my protein choices have allways been lean so just wanted to ensure that if I just allow myself to eat 80 to 90g of protein and fat until feeling “full” and the fat number is below say 60g that I am not doing something wrong as one thing I do not want to do is loose muscle

(Siobhan) #10

Fat is to satiety, so however much you need to stay full is fine I would imagine. The only concern would be undereating and being too low in calories, but that is normal at the start anyway and resolves itself with time.
Protein around 90g should be fine… that is within the range I mentioned which most people fall into. Eating less fat would not result in muscle loss, you have to go really low on protein to actually lose muscle, as @richard as demonstrated.
Just make sure you’re eating fat to satiety, and yes you should be fine. I would opt for fattier meats (chicken thigh instead of breast, etc) when you can because protein in lean meats can add up pretty quick - but that said if lean meats work for you with a fatty sauce instead, then go for it.

Big thing on keto is listen to your body. Hunger, blood glucose/ketones, weight and measurement changes, mood, etc. It kind of all ties together.

EDIT: Also one thing to mention is that protein cannot be used as fuel “as is”. It has to be converted to sugar first, and for every bit above you go in protein than absolutely necessary the less fat you are turning into ketones. .

So what happens is you’re turning excess protein to glucose,and you’re turning less fat into ketones the more you do this, but this isn’t enough to replace the ketones that would have been made if you were using fat instead, and so you don’t have enough ketones OR glucose for the brain. So you make more glucose via the liver. Which spikes insulin. So eating too much protein causes there to be a need for MORE glucose to be produced, which is the opposite of what we want - because the purpose is to reduce insulin and stabilize blood sugar as much as possible.
Hence why it is recommended you get to your sweet spot with protein and use fat for fuel - not protein.

As has been said before… protein is for building blocks, fat is for fuel.

(J DAKIC) #11

That really makes sense - thank you :grin: