My stall has lasted a year. Sadness

(Jim Scott) #21

@Alecmcq Yes, I am bit surprised as well! I’ve done some extensive searches on Metoprolol, Lisinopril and Amlodipine in terms of Keto, weight, insulin. I haven’t found much. One or two studies here and there about something else that implies beta blockers and ace inhibitors mildly interfere with weight/glucose control and a few comments pro and con on Reddit from unauthoritative sources.

I do have a feeling they might be the problem. I tried a self experiment of cutting doses in half for about two weeks to see if there would be a weight change and/or blood glucose/keytone level change. I think there was a small rise in ketones in that period (went from a stead 0.4 to a steady 0.5) but little else. And my blood pressure did start rising again into bad territory. So I stopped the experiment. BP back to normal.

It’s a bit of a conundrum. MY BP has gotten better because I have stopped insulin from racing through my blood constantly at high levels. But I haven’t lost enough weight to have normal BP without meds quite yet. But if the BP meds are interfering with weight loss it is a catch-22 !

Oh, and yeah, I can’t get help from my GP or cardiologist. They are both very anti-keto and wont get very involved in any conversation like this before they turn to the ‘keto is very bad for your heart’ muck.

(Jim Scott) #22

@buxomlass - thanks for the link. I love the Low-Carb-Down-Under folks! I do feel better about protein. In that video there was also mention of if you don’t get enough protein you will experience lean body mass (ie muscle!) loss. I am pretty sure over the last year that while I feel I have much more energy I have felt physically weaker when I do chores around the house, especially if heavy lifting is involved.

Yep, I am changing my ratios to include more protein. I think I will go from about my current 5-25-70 to 5-35-60 or even 5-40-55 and see what happens. As soon as my fridge runs out of my stockpile of cheese :slight_smile:

(Jim Scott) #23

@Fangs It does seem a slow recovery. I get my Insulin Resistance markers done every six months, and have for the last 18 months. The score started at 65/100 (very insulin resistant) to 55 six months ago to 43 this month (mild insulin resistance). If that score is to be believed it has taken 1.5-2 years to reverse 50 years of bad diet, 25 years of smoking (I quit 15 years ago), and 30 years of obesity. But it isn’t completely reversed. Yet. sigh.

(Take time to smell the bacon) #24

What weight would that be? I still weigh quite a lot, but my blood pressure came down quite nicely on keto. I don’t believe that overweight, whether from a great deal of muscle or from excess fat, causes high blood pressure. I do believe that obesity and hyptertension share the same cause, however.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #25

The bad news is the amount and variety of damage you’ve accumulated over the decades won’t be fixed quickly and maybe not totally. Keto is biochemistry not magic. And my guess is that to this point it has been higher priority to fix some of that damage.

The good news is that maintaining keto long term will give you best the shot you have for success. Keto is a process of metabolic normalization. How much and what specific damage has been done determines how long and completely your metabolism can be normalized. Too many folks fixate on excess weight/fat, which is really a symptom of underlying problems caused by any number of things related to energy throughput, storage, utilization, etc. In your specific situation, I’d bet the elevated BP is also a symptom - maybe requiring short-term medical/chemical intervention to prevent potential catastrophic damage - but that will also ‘fix itself’ as your metabolism trends towards more normal.

(Karim Wassef) #26

I’ve been away for a while but this post caught my eye.

Over the past couple of years I’ve been formulating a bigger view of keto and how/why it works in the context of the counter keto cico crowd.

One observation is that keto is most effective early in the process because it confuses the body. Your body doesn’t care about six pack abs. It’s job is to keep you alive right now, regardless of whether that keeps you alive tomorrow or not. With that prime directive, the sudden loss of carbs and glucose throws it into survival mode - which means massive energy wasting to make sure you have the ketones and fatty acids liberated at high enough levels that you don’t die.

In this phase, nothing is calibrated. You’re not adapted and it is willing to burn fat at outrageous levels to maintain your metabolism. It is very very wasteful and that’s great for fat loss - this “honeymoon” phase doesn’t last forever though. Eventually, your new habits become predictable- you’re going to feed on fat and protein - most likely at preset times. You’re going to need this much energy… you’re smaller so you don’t need as much… etc… basically, it figures you out.

Once that’s done, you “stall” on keto because your body is efficient once more. It’s keto-efficient and it has lowered your metabolism to maximize your chances of survival. So what’s the solution? Confuse it again. I used extended fasting to do that. I used cold baths and sauna… Some use weightlifting or cardio… Some use intermittent fasting. Some try to carb load to switch it into carb-mode and then switch back. Some choose reverse dieting to increase metabolism again. Some add fiber to maximize satiety and reduce intake… I’m not recommending any one thing- just create metabolic confusion. It’s comfortable - so make it uncomfortable again.

One more thing caught my eye - you said you’re not hungry. In my experience, you should never eat if you’re not hungry (forget macros). You should also never eat till you’re full - only eat till you’re sated. Just enough to not be hungry any more. Always be willing to put away any food beyond that level of satiety. I fell into the trap of following through on my macro plan and that stalled me. Only walking away when sated broke my stall. I was amazed how little food it actually took for me to not be hungry.

Hope this helps.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #27

On the other hand, some of us - like me - started keto and it felt like I was back home in comfort and safety again after spending a tour of duty in the Mekong Delta. Keto was a return to the prime directive. I never went through carb withdrawal - aka ‘keto flu’ - never missed all the fave carb foods I’d eaten for decades prior; lost some weight without effort and went into maintenance seamlessly. And here I am - 5 years later. Keto was a return - not a challenge.

PS: I realize I’m not typical. But I am who I am.

(Alec) #28

I don’t know those drugs, and I am no Dr, but high BP is a nasty and should be avoided. So, if you’ve tried dropping the med dosage and your BP started to rise, then maybe you need to be on them. BTW, what is “high” BP for you? Also, is it an option to only take your meds say every other day? That would give your body time for the insulin response to go back down and burn the bodyfat.

So, onto my next recommendation: fasting. My experience is that keto is not a cast iron way to lose weight, whereas fasting is. Fasting is, in fact, the ultimate keto diet: are my carbs below 20g? Oh yes, let’s say zero. Is my insulin response very low? Subterranean. Result? I am chewing through my existing fat reserves.

Now, it sounds to me that you are well fat adapted, so fasting should work well for you. I think you said you have done some fasts… how long for and how did they go?

My recommendation to break your stall is to do some regular 36-42hr fasts, and throw in some 3 day fasts. I have done this, and not eating in fact becomes a pleasure. I can almost feel my body breathing a sigh of relief and re-organising itself!

I am a similar weight to you right now, so I know what kind of body fat you may have… there’s plenty to burn!

My only concern is this: if your meds are triggering an insulin response strong enough to make your body not want to burn fat, then you may damage your metabolic rate because your body just won’t have access to the energy it needs. If you do fast, I would be very sensitive to feeling low energy. If this happens, I would be breaking your fast with some good keto food.

My experience on fasts is that my energy goes up, not down. Why? Because the ketones are high and available to burn. But you are not me… it may be different for you.

Take care, cheers Alec