My N=1 of Fire In a Bottle's saturated fat theory, plus critique

#41

@ctviggen

It’s this reason I don’t think OMAD is best for me. For many, it’s hard to eat over their day’s calories in one sitting. For me, I don’t really struggle making it all day until one meal. However, once I eat that meal, I could keep going and going, even with clean foods. I find that if I do eat lunch, my appetite for dinner is still there, but not ravenous.

(Bob M) #42

Interesting. I find the opposite: if I eat one meal, I can’t eat that much. I get too full.

This might be the effect of higher saturated fat, as the fat that gets “expressed” into the blood for your current meal depends in part on your previous meal.

I’m not sure why I get more of an effect with one meal rather than two, though. And, I eat later in the evening for my OMAD, which might mean I can’t eat that much.

Everyone is different, I guess.

I’m still trying high saturated fat, as I do seem to be turning a corner and reducing my weight again. Or at least all my clothes are fitting better.

And, in general, I do feel better eating more saturated fat. That could be what I’m eating (some dairy, cacao), or could be the saturated fat or both. I tend to eat leaner meats (when I control my meals) with added saturated fat. It could, of course, have nothing to do with any of that, too. :wink:

(Bob M) #43

A check in.

Over the holiday, I had some (real) pancakes that were made with a lot of butter and I put quite a bit of butter on them. Think “butter sandwich”. If the theory is that butter + carbs = lowered hunger, this is completely false by this meal. I was STARVING later, and could have easily eaten 10 of these, though I only ate 2.

I also tried potato fries, fried in tallow made from suet. The tallow is extremely hard at room temperature (about 65F), so I assume it’s a lot of saturated fat. Again, I could’ve eaten tons of fries, with no “off switch”, and did not note any subsequent lack of hunger effect.

On the other hand, I think saturated fat in the context of a low carb diet is helpful for me. I feel better (which, of course, I could be imagining), and there is some blunting of hunger, particularly when I add berberine to this. Still testing though…

(Anthony) #44

TL/DR; I think there’s something to this

Long time lurker here (2 years). Quick background, lost 110 pounds on keto in 2019 and have kept it off through today while trying a few radically different diet incarnations while my goals shifted from weight loss to strength training and maintenance. Currently playing with a high saturated fat/TCD variation.

I’ve found that carbs do have a definite effect on my satiety (positively) but the ratio of carbs:fat need not be very high. For example, a cheeseburger and some fries fried in tallow was moderately satisfying, but when I soaked and toasted the bun in the burger run off it was significantly better. I think if the base or medium you’re using to eat the fat is too carb heavy you’ll fail to reach satiety before over eating. French fries, pancakes, or pasta are all foods that easily fit this profile where they can be wonderful mediums for fat but the ratio of carbs:fat may not be as low as you think.

If I eat to satiety on this diet I find I’m not hungry again for around 9 to 12 hours, which is longer than I historically go between meals and fits neatly in a TMAD schedule. If I’m not full after I finish my meal I’ve found I need either more protein or more fat and I won’t be truly satisfied until I get whichever it is. If I don’t eat to/near true satiety I get hungry again much sooner, leading to extra meals and high calorie days. I wonder if this is some of the problem with the SAD? Maybe this is what you experienced? The obvious conclusion is that you don’t need the carbs (especially on a keto forum), but I feel better with them included and my satiety signals are stronger even though they don’t seem to drive satiety in isolation.

I’ve been tracking with cronometer and my macros seem to be settling pretty consistently around 25/50/25 p/f/c with about 50% of the fat being saturated, but it’s only been a few weeks yet.

#45

I wrote here long ago, I hope I didn’t repeat myself too much…

Almost any amount of added fat + carbs = instant hunger to me… :slight_smile: The egg in pancake helps but I would need more than 10 eggs for that let alone pancakes…
500g bread with lots of butter surely wasn’t enough in the few times I tested… I stayed hungry. You made the test more butter heavy though… Still, the presence of carbs and the very low amount of protein makes it a not satiating food to me.
Potato with butter? I had that in my past many times. Nope, not really good for hunger.

But the satiation effect of food is very very individual, I learned this through reading about people’s experiences. I am doomed without fatty protein, added fat doesn’t work well.
And if I add some carbs, even if it’s little and I stay in ketosis, it hurts my satiation so it’s not what @Selllow has at all. We people are just too different.

I can’t experiment with saturated fat as my woe isn’t flexible enough for that and I can’t possibly know the fat profile of the significant amount of fatty pork I consume. And I only experienced the big difference between added fat (or cream) and fat in my protein sources.
When I very unusually seriously overate on a keto day once, I ate much coconut oil, yep, saturated added fat just doesn’t work for me. If I had used some satiating fat, I would have felt super full and I felt quite normal. I didn’t even feel I ate much more than usual fat and I did.

(Anthony) #46

@Shinita, I think you’re carnivore? What I do frequently when testing things out is use foods that are near pure macros. Ham, tuna, yogurt, cream cheese, heavy cream, butter, and cacao butter are staples I use to fill out meals after I’ve eaten but am missing “something”. I start with protein and wait a few minutes, if that wasn’t it I hit the fat. It’d be easy enough to do with pork loin and really fatty pork belly if that fits your preferences. Fatty meat is tough to figure the macros of which is why I don’t put a ton of weight on day to day food tracking but if you zoom out far enough I think it’s accurate enough to give you an idea of what’s going on.

#47

I am no carnivore but I need extreme low-carb to feel best and I do what I can :slight_smile: I am flirting with carnivore since a year (I came from vegetarian keto, it was a quite surreal jump with some hardships but carnivore-ish is perfect for me), I try to be close to it most of the time. I eat plants but it’s almost no carbs on my good, carnivore-ish days, the amount is so tiny and it seems working for me. Even with rare off days. (I did them not that rarely in 2020, I needed time.)
I have been tracking on keto, I don’t need and can’t even remotely accurately do it on carnivore since I eat a significant amount of fatty meat. I stopped tracking lately, my carbs are fine anyway (that’s why I needed it on keto, the carbs), my protein is high anyway (if I eat very little, it’s adequate) and I never stopped eating just because I reached a number. I also know what satiates me at this point. So tracking would be an unneeded burden.

I can’t focus on protein or fat, I need food with 60-70% (maybe 75% but that is stretching and can’t be done often) fat percentage calorie wise all the time. I don’t eat pork chop or pork ribs easy as they are outside of this range. I tried them and I disliked the level of fattiness. I can eat the fatty stuff with something leaner but a lean meat is almost hopeless, added fat doesn’t help.
My fattiest item is a few slices of sausage, that’s good when I miss something after a substantial meal. If the amount is bigger, I need something leaner with it to bring it below 70%. It’s usually eggs.
I love sour cream too but that isn’t satiating as its protein content is very low. So it’s just some enjoyable little extra.

So I think I know all about it what I need for my fat-loss and satiation. I am done with tracking. Some experiments will happen in the future but probably not with fat. I wished to try out a more protein rich style (just for a few days, I don’t want very high protein for reasons) but when I raised my protein, my fat followed. It is almost inevitable. Too much fat can’t happen either.

(Bob M) #48

Sorry, I got sidetracked and am just checking back in.

@Selllow, you bring up good points, as does @Shinita

After some reflection, I think high saturated fat can lead to satiety. But the problem is that if I eat dinner, I eat a normal dinner.

A typical day might be:

  1. Lunch at say 10am-12pm, depending on many factors, including exercise; can have lots of saturated fat sometimes
  2. Some period of high satiety, which may have a “dip” where there’s less, but it comes back.
  3. May not be hungry at all (and sometimes I mean AT ALL) at dinner
  4. But if I eat (with the family), I eat basically normally. What happens is that I’ll eat a bit; say, that was good; then eat more; repeat until I’ve eaten an entire meal.

So, if I was single or no one was home, there are many times (including yesterday) when I would not eat dinner. But if I eat dinner, I eat a normal one.

So, I think saturated fat has an effect on satiety, but there’s another “piece” of satiety that’s “broken” in me. My guess is that one or more of the many hormones and feedback systems that are there to cause you to limit eating, once you start, are broken for me.

The other point, which you both addressed, is the type of carbs. If I eat say potatoes or sweet potatoes with butter (or butter oil + stearic acid), I don’t care about eating any more of them. And there may be something to fat + carbs being more satiating than just fat, but I’ve not tracked that down.

But there’s something about bread that causes me to overeat. It’s like nuts or bacon – I always overeat those.

And that’s weird, because I never really ate bread. (Other than pizza.)

So, if anyone wants to try this, I do think that it can work as one factor of satiety. I just don’t think it’s the ONLY factor for satiety.

And, unfortunately, I can’t tell you what those other factors might be.

(Anthony) #49

I’m still playing with it (TCD varient) myself, still including some carbs but trying to pin down patterns/answers. I’m still fairly low carb, which sounds weird to me because it’s a crazy high amount compared to keto, and have greatly improved satiety/feel better in general. I did put a little weight back on but quickly stabilized and have remained there several months now.

My satiety now is so strong I don’t even want coffee all the time, which is unusual for me. I was a habitual 1.5-2 pot a day drinker for years. Now after breakfast and a couple cups I get that hard stop satiety feeling, and I drink it black so it’s not from cream. Funny that many keto people are heavy coffee drinkers also, I wonder if it’s being used as a surrogate for another craving that isn’t being satisfied.

I have a similar problem, which is why I’ve been avoiding bread/pasta recently. I think it falls into my “minimally processed” trap. “Whole foods” that aren’t really processed but I’ll eat more of than I would otherwise–I’ll eat more mashed potatoes than baked, olives vs olive oil, I’ll eat a lot of nuts but the entire jar of nut butter is even easier. I’m wondering if wheat/flour falls in this area somehow also.

Agree with this. The more I learn the less I know.

#50

That’s a combo that never satiated me, not even in huge amounts… Protein always must be present.
I mean added fat, fat tissue is satiating to me, it seems - though I never tried it without lots of protein. Potatoes with butter? That’s where I could go forever even if I started it in a very satiated state… But my sessions with bread and butter or lard are memorable too.
Nowadays I play with unusual fat:protein ratio. My less fatty days are highly effective this far but as there are always multiple factors changing even if I control my eating well, I can’t be totally sure yet.
But I never could pull off lower-protein days or meals (except when I did a fat fast but that was 1.5 days in my life and it’s highly special). If my protein isn’t high enough, I may get satiated but I get hungry again and again and again.

Of course you can’t tell the factors for satiety. It’s very individual, we know that from people, such things are often mentioned.
My SO gets satiated with everything about the same, the weirdo :smiley: (low-carb food may or may not have a delayed effect so overeating and suffering is possible there. I never found the logic but baked things never do that and high-carb food is always safe)…
It seems carbs satiate me better if I had carnivore days previously (I don’t often go and eat a bunch of carbs after carnivore so I am not totally sure but it seems when my carnivore super satiation kicks in, it lingers for a while even if I go off)… Crazy.
So there may be zillion factors. Even the charm of the food…

What. But it has nothing to do with satiation. I want coffee when I definitely couldn’t eat (even if I am completely full, I just have problems with consuming it then. but it’s hard to fill my stomach)… Extreme low-carb solves nearly everything in my case but not my coffee addiction.
I don’t think I have another craving. If I really fancy something, I consume it, rules be damned… Coffee is a great procrastination morning tool to me I guess (I am NOT a morning person and I mean it on epic levels). And I like the taste. And I often want a warm liquid and tea isn’t always good enough. I drink lots of tea too. Maybe I should analyze it more. It’s partly a mystery. And of course, it’s a habit. Coffein does little to none to me so it’s not that. I may have an addictive personality if I like something.

I am the opposite, I love crunchy :smiley: (And I dislike olives in all form.) I never liked mashed potatoes and when Mom made it, I promptly tried to fried it. So it’s all about the charm of my food. If I like it, I tend to eat more of it. My super satiating items (like fatty meat) are still safe, I can’t overeat them. And I can’t overeat low-carb food I don’t like very much. I can eat a ton of bread I don’t even like but find it mildly interesting or it’s my rebellious inner self’s big day… And anyway, I put lard or butter on it and it becomes way better… It was hard to get some resistance towards bread but as something gets more common occurence in my household, it loses some charm.

But I don’t want to write an essay about why people find something more tempting than it actually is… So I stop here.

Why I like thinking about food so much? Even my past behavior and past favs?